Mixing up Tones 1 & 4 in spoken speech. Exercises to remedy?

[roddy]

Do textbooks still have 轻声 as changing pitch depending on the proceeding tone, *not* what the original tone is?

[realmayo]

3 minutes ago, 889 said:

In a double-fourth word like 重要, the second fourth tone both starts and ends a bit lower than the first; it's also a shade lighter. You'll sound weird if you make both fourth tones in the pair identical.

 

No doubt about the first part (starting/ending lower) but I wonder about the second (a shade lighter) e.g. 宿舍

[889]

Well, try to say the two characters with the same stress in normal colloquial speech (not when you're emphasizing the word or giving a formal lecture, say). Sounds a bit off to me: I normally touch the second character here more lightly in colloquial use.

[realmayo]

I think I would expect to hear the opposite in colloquial speech, stressing the second character of 宿舍 slightly more than the first character. Though I half think that if I wanted to draw attention to the word for some reason, I'd stress the first character a little more.

[889]

-- 你住在哪栋宿舍？

 

-- 宿舍!？我住在宾馆。

[realmayo]

I don't think it's surprising if there's a little tail-off of stress on the second syllable of a word which is at the end of a question.

 

你知道宿舍在哪兒嗎? - here I think I'd expect to hear a stress on the first syllable because calling out of your taxi window to the student walking past, you're calling attention to the fact that it's the dorm you're asking about.

 

But look, native speakers will often struggle to identify and reproduce stress, and it will change from context to context. The Duanmu book talks about 宿舍 as having more stress on the second syllable, compared to 計劃 where the stress is equal on the two syllables. So maybe that's why I can't shake it from my head.

 

Also: how are we even defining "stress"? Some of the linguists refer to longer syllable length - and I think there's often a natural tendency to say the first syllabnle quicker than the second. Others to loudness. I suppose giving a fuller range of tone to one syllable versus another would be a third way?

 

[889]

The problem with the word "stress" is precisely why I tried to use such awkward circumlocutions as "touch more lightly" and "a shade lighter."

[realmayo]

I see. But perhaps these are two different things: one, is there any change of emphasis noted by the listener; two, how do we isolate and describe that change of emphasis.

 

Anyway here are some interesting ones from the book, where "1" means the syllable is stronger than "2" and "2" is stronger than "x":

 

怪人: can be (a) a phrase meaning "blame someone", or (b) a compound meaning "strange person".

a) "blame someone": 2-1 (i.e. the second syllable is more stressed than the first) (and also: the second syllable is longer)

b) "strange person": 1-2 (first syllable is more stressed; equal lengths).

 

創造天才: can be (a) a phrase meaning "to create genius", or (b) a compound meaning "creative genius".

a) "to create genius" 2-x-1-x

b) "creative genius" 1-x-2-x

 

And Duanmu reckons that the following common disallabic words are all 2-1, they all have the stronger stress on the second syllable, and that second syllable is a little longer than the first:

 火車, 汽車, 貨車, 公雞

 

... and he says the same is true with a common 河 like 黃河, but NOT for other 河s that are less common e.g. 淮河.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[骏马的丕沿?]

In order to fix this problem, keep practicing the way you have been practicing.

[suMMit]

I seem to struggle with 4th tone followed by neutral tone , or 4th 4th neutral like 对面的。I think sometimes I turn the above mian4 into a 1st tone when then neutral tone follows.

[malazann]

On 3/6/2021 at 12:19 AM, realmayo said:

I wonder whether you're hearing the yao as neutral, or simply as less-stressed than the zhong. Previously on these forums we've found lots of examples of syllables - typically second syllables in a two-syllable word - which you'd swear were getting a proper tone, but listening to the syllable in isolation, do not seem to be getting a tone.

 

have you seen this channel on youtube that has a few videos on Stress? Word-Level Stress in Mandarin (Part 1): 4 Types of Words and How to Stress Them! - YouTube

 

It was fascinating to see her explain it in a systematic manner.

 

e.g In 2-character words that have basically the same meaning, the second character is usually destressed (using her terminology).

 

幸福 ， 保持 ， 懒惰， 阴险 are some words that she uses as examples.