[Barton Fink]

I have glanced through the topics in this forum and gathered bits and pieces of information, but like any new poster I am inclined to ask questions regarding my own situation as a potential English teacher in China. I have been researching job opportunities in the bigger cities, and trying to figure out cost of living and what a general contract is composed of (salary, flights, vacation, accommodations, ect) but have not yet decided upon what kind of experience I am exactly looking for. The lure of the big city has always appealed to me, but I think with regards to what I want my first year to be like in China, I am leaning toward being outside of the major major cities.

I suppose the essential question I have been pondering is if my Bachelor of Arts with a major in English from a highly respected Canadian University (Dalhousie University) will be enough to get me a job fairly easily in China, or if I should pursue some sort of ESL training, which takes up money I don't have and time I don't want to sacrifice, as I have quite the itch to travel and teach now that the end of my degree is rapidly approaching, specifically in China. Is having a degree in English a bonus, and should I use that to my advantage, or does it really matter what your major is in? Also, I don't have any formal ESL training, but I have tutored in University, corrected and edited many papers, and even guest lectured formal University classes. If I have this experience, and have the ability to push it, would this suffice in the negotiating process and perhaps eliminate the purported disadvantage of not having a ESL certificate? Does having a degree in English for a job teaching English in China make that much of a difference in acquiring employment and establishing a fair contract with the employer and perhaps even acquiring free-lance jobs on the side, teaching business people or other professionals in Chinese society? Is my English degree more useful than other degrees.

If all works out with my credits and degree audit, I would want to leave for China in early 2008. Is this a prime time for opportunities in acquiring an English teaching position? If not, what are the high activity months of the year, or is it not that simple and basically I have to wing it and hope that everything goes well?

Everything else I'm sort of trying to piece together myself, but these two questions are the most immediate ones I need to sort out so that I can start to establish a foundation for the process of moving to China. Any assistance would be great, and perhaps even some correspondence and personal advice would help a lot also.

Sure am glad I found this forum

[kdavid]

Hi Barton.

The bare minimal requirement to teach English in China is that you are a native-English speaker. Degrees and certifications are bonuses. However, meeting the bare requirements will only grant you access to entry-level schools. In other words, the more qualifications you have (degrees, certificates, experience, etc.) the better (and higher paying) jobs you'll be able to find.

The semesters here in Harbin, and likely in other cities in China as well, begin around the second week of September (Fall semester) and late February / early March (Spring semester). These are prime times to apply for university positions. The other option would be private language schools which typically hire year-round.

In regards to location, you might want to check out this article, which discusses saving potential in, to use your words, non- "major major cities", and this one which discusses the benefits of living in major regional cities as opposed to hectic mega centers.

Hope this helps! Feel free to PM me with any further questions.

[simonlaing]

Hey Barton,

To work in a University or a middle School you need a bachelor's degree. The university may give you a little extra money because your major was english, but it would be better if you had a teaching degree or MA. (there are government regulations that state the base salary of Uni teachers, though many schools pay bonuses on top of this regulation)

THere are private and kindergarten classes that being a native speaker is the requirement. (Also Causian skin will be a bonus.) The difference is these are more money, but often more work. The private companies will work you 4- 5 hours of class a day 5 days a week, where the University or school will be 12-16 hours a week.

I am in medium/large city Nanjing and enjoy it here. Shanghai and Beijing are places where you can work for a month at a job and then take the next month off.
In smaller cities you can negotiate special treatment. I had a friend who had a job in Zhejiang a province south of SHanghai. He negotiated with his university for fridays and mondays of and went to Shanghai for 4 days of the week. Train travel is easy and cheap so having time off to study helps.

Universities and School get summer vacation and spring festival off, where as some private companies work through them, though will close for 2 or 3 days in Spring Festival.
There is still a high demand for English teachers most places in China, you will be able to find a job don't worry.
have fun,
SimoN:)

[Senzhi]

As for teaching business English to corporate clients, you would likely need a solid background in international business, through actual experience. These clients do not only seek to learn English for business purposes, but also a clear understanding of international business cultures.

[Rincewind]

The bare minimum is that you are a native English speaker and have either a degree or a teaching qualification. Having both is probably gilding the Lilly a bit unless you have the time and money to get both. Since you will be teaching English, having a BA in English should open a few more doors. However, there is such a demand teachers that some schools will take almost anyone. I know teachers here that have no degrees and are not native speakers yet they still get paid a decent rate simply because they are white and so can fake it.

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If all works out with my credits and degree audit, I would want to leave for China in early 2008. Is this a prime time for opportunities in acquiring an English teaching position? If not, what are the high activity months of the year, or is it not that simple and basically I have to wing it and hope that everything goes well?

March the 1st is the start of term here in Liaoning province. January and February are holidays. Though, some private schools may be able to give you classes during the holidays they usually give these classes to the teachers who are already here rather than newcomers.

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The lure of the big city has always appealed to me, but I think with regards to what I want my first year to be like in China, I am leaning toward being outside of the major major cities.

In china, every city is a big city. At least compared to back home. Medium sized cities like Dalian and Nanjing are bigger that the country I come form! (Scotland). In the middle sized cities you are more likely to get a true city life as you can probably get an apartment in a central location with the restaurants and shops right out side your door. Where as in bigger cities you could be out in the suburbs in a mainly residential area.

Simonlaing is broadly right about Universities and middle schools. If I can just add that Universities usually pay less than the private schools. I have two friends at Normal University here. One who is a well experienced American qualified English Teacher and the other has unrelated degrees in another subject. The American teacher does earn more than here colleague, however she still earns half of what I get teaching at a private school.

Private schools will often subcontract you out to local Primary and Middle or high schools or even to the Universities. So you may get more variety and experience doing this. Where as university posts tend to be more stable and dependable and less likely to renege on the contract.

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establishing a fair contract with the employer

I don't want a fair contract with an employer. I want a contract with a fair employer. These are two very different things and the difference is important.

Many foreigners find that the schools do not honor their contracts. I've heard it said that the Chinese sign the contract first and then start negotiating. This seems to be causing many of the other foreigners here allot of problems. I was lucky that I found a good school at the beginning. There are other schools here that offer better looking contracts but I know that they don't hold by them. What is the point of a contract if one party doesn't respect it.

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acquiring free-lance jobs on the side, teaching business people or other professionals in Chinese society? Is my English degree more useful than other degrees.

Most contracts forbid you form taking free-lance work on the side. However, most teachers do free-lance work anyway. You should expect to get maybe a class or two at the weekend or early eventing teaching school kids. I find it's most often 8 to 12 year olds. During holidays you might get a few more private classes if you have got to know the parents a bit. If you work through a private school, then they may give you some classes but not all private school have their own classrooms. Many just subcontract you to other schools.

For teaching Business English you need a degree or experience in Management, Accounting or Marketing. I teach a Business English class because I have a Degree in Engineering Management and over 10 years management experience. Without the management experience I'd be sceptical about your ability to teach that subject properly.

[imron]

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Hope this helps! Feel free to PM me with any further questions.

Or, even better, keep posting your questions in this thread so that everyone can benefit from the answers.

[simonlaing]

The whole business English teaching qualification is blown out of proportion.

Most school outside of Shanghai have enough trouble getting a native english speaker let alone one that is also trained in business. Plus most of the time the level of the students taking the business classes are barely over intermediate and need to be given so much vocabulary it is only a passing commonality of Business.

On big issues though is that teaching materials including textbooks are very sparse and hard to come by in China. In a recent Business English class I am teach the book it self has major grammatical errors , usage issues and other problems, yet it and another are the only ones remotely applicable. (So you may want to bring a book or too, or get good at internet research, Dave's esl cafe etc..)

I would be careful of taking too many classes the first 6 months that you are here as it will prevent you from exploring and traveling that much. 25 hours a week teaching may not sound a lot but you will be exhausted.

Good luck,
ahve fun,
Simon:)
P.S. Yunnan and Guangxi are pretty places to travel and teach though the wages are a little lower than other places.
P.P.S. I would advise against western and central china as they are poorer, drier and have less development than other parts of the country. there are exceptions in cities but those are the general trends.

[Rincewind]

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Most school outside of Shanghai have enough trouble getting a native english speaker let alone one that is also trained in business.

Actually, it's quite easy. Many University educated people who have done some work back home before coming to China will have management and business experience and/or degrees.

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In a recent Business English class I am teach the book it self has major grammatical errors , usage issues and other problems, yet it and another are the only ones remotely applicable.

I would be interested in knowing which books you refer to. I use the 'Pass Cambridge BEC...' range which is printed by Summertown Publishing.

[simonlaing]

Keep in mind I had limited choices and am getting the books reimbursed by the the company in RMB so buying things online with dollars won't work. (And the books won't arrive in time)
The books apart from internet resources of which Wikipedia is fairly decent summary are as follows.

21 Century Practical International Business Spoken English
21 世纪实用国际商务英语口语
Published by Peking University Press, 北京大学出版社 2007.4
(Even the title has some chinglish issues. there sentences like "You must be very tired after such a long travel.") But the general idea is good and it has discussions on some culture, and chinese translations all over.

The second book is all english but has some good cultural points.
Business Communication
商务交际 by Foreign Language teaching and research Press, Beijing, 外语教学与研究出版社 2007.5 www.fltrp.com but as I said it is all in english
It also has CHinglish issues "p10 why to people make small talks" but it does have exercises and end of chapter quizes.
(It still suprises me if you're going to publish an all english book why you don't pass it through a native speaker editors hands before it is published. This said from guy being the only foreigner working in a large translation company.)

There is another book of business dialogues that I thought of using but I don't have it handy at the moment. It is of similar mediocre grade.

Apart from Harry Potter it is rare to see western published books in China, in their original English.

Have fun,
SimoN:)
P.S. the Ielts prep books and Cambridge published books I have seen have been of good quality, unfortunate I have a hard time finding them in the book stores in Nanjing

[cdn_in_bj]

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In a recent Business English class I am teach the book it self has major grammatical errors , usage issues and other problems

It also seems to be having a negative influence on your grammar as well.

[Rincewind]

Simon, you should be able to get the book I mentioned in China. I got my copy at the Xinhua bookshop in Anshan - which isn't exactly the biggest of cities. I've seen it for sale in Shenyang as well so I'd think a larger city like Nanjing should have it in stock. The books are in 3 levels and have both student book and workbook plus CD/tapes. The student book is priced at 43 yuan so not going to break any banks.

[kdavid]

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The whole business English teaching qualification is blown out of proportion.

Merely being a native speaker will not guarantee you some of the best jobs available.

Yes, you can find work without any experience or qualifications. However, the best (and highest paying) jobs will require qualifications and experience.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to priorities. If your priority is just to travel and work in China, and you don't care about money or location, then, yes, just being a native speaker is enough. However, if you're planning to be in the TESOL field for some time, getting qualifications in the beginning will greatly increase your applicability and increase your earning potential.

[Barton Fink]

Thank you all for replying and for the useful information you've provided.

Rincewind

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I don't want a fair contract with an employer. I want a contract with a fair employer. These are two very different things and the difference is important.

I found this to be a particularily interesting point, and one i've come across in my research quite often. I'm sort of worried about this process, and the culture differences between what I, as a westerner, percieve to be a binding contract and what a person who i've never met, and who has a whole different set of rules in how a contract is negociated, percieves to be the definition of 'binding'. Are there any tips for this? Is it best to talk on the phone or to communicate via email? Is there a particular way in which I should word my language in order to elicit certain definite language from the employer so as to more strongly impress upon them the concept of an absolute contract and that varations from it are not allowed?

Esspecially with it being my first time doing this, I don't want to get stuck in a situation where I am being taken advantage of. I suppose thorough research into the school i'm applying to would be essential; i've also heard that asking for past teachers who have been employed there is a good idea, and if they deny you that information, for whatever reason, it is a red flag, so to speak.

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For teaching Business English you need a degree or experience in Management, Accounting or Marketing. I teach a Business English class because I have a Degree in Engineering Management and over 10 years management experience. Without the management experience I'd be sceptical about your ability to teach that subject properly.

This seems fair. I suppose I was just concentrating on the language aspect of the arrangement, that they would need some coaching in english and general western idioms and social gestures that would be important in communicating effectively within their business millieu.

I've been doing more research and I think i've become very interested in the city of Hangzhou. From what i've read and the pictures i've seen, it seems like it would be a wonderful place to live and experience China. It's incredibly beautiful and quite developed, from what I understand. Can anyone give me any information that is not provided in wikipedia pages and traveller/tourist jargon? This city seems to be my first choice so far; it is quite close to Shanghai, which is a bonus when I do want to experience that sort of life, but seems to be just enough removed and just big enough that it seems perfect. A Chinese man I work with recommended it to me, telling me that it was one of his favorite places in all of China when he lived there (he had family there and had visited a number of times and seemed quite genuinely impressed by it).

Also, just a few more questions i've been pondering:

How does the airfare part of the contract play out? Do they send me a ticket to fly there, or do I have to pay for the ticket myself and then hope they reimburse my costs?

In most cases, do the employers at least have a basic understanding of English, or am I to arrive there completely isolated from the English language? How does this effect the contract and difficulities/barriers in teaching and operating as an employee?

What have your experiences been in the 'apartment/'accommodations' part of the contract? Have they been decent flats? Does it vary from city to city, and if so, could anyone elaborate upon specific experiences they've had on the actual living conditions they're provided with when they arrive?

Thanks in advance for answering the questions. You've been extremely helpful thus far.

[Rincewind]

Hangzhou is a very nice place. Not too big but well developed. There's allot missing on wikipedia about this city. There are many Chinese fairy tails, legends and songs written about this place. I went there for a day trip (from shanghai) in April. You can see my photos here http://www.stylegall...lery=13&image=0 It's only a short train ride from shanghai which cost me 44 yuan. I think it's even faster now as they have the new high speed trains on that route.

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How does the airfare part of the contract play out? Do they send me a ticket to fly there, or do I have to pay for the ticket myself and then hope they reimburse my costs?

It can vary but usually you pay for the ticket to and from China, then at the end of your stay, you get refunded your costs. (usually up to a limit of about 4500 yuan.) The amount is usually pro-rated so if you only work 8 months in the year then you get 8/12 of the money. However, the air ticket seems to frequently cause problems. I've knew one teacher who didn't got fired just a few weeks from the end of his contract and the school refused to pay out.

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What have your experiences been in the 'apartment/'accommodations' part of the contract? Have they been decent flats? Does it vary from city to city, and if so, could anyone elaborate upon specific experiences they've had on the actual living conditions they're provided with when they arrive?

Some are good but many are dreadful. At least compared to western standards. Be prepared for a change in lifestyle; especially with regards to the toilet. The Chinese don't seem to exert any effort in this department. Beds are typically very hard. In fact my first Chinese bed was made of wood. There was only an 1/8 of an inch of padding on the top of it. Western mattresses are available so you may purchase some extra comfort if you need it. However, I found I got used to the hard bed after just a few weeks of backache and bruises.

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In most cases, do the employers at least have a basic understanding of English, or am I to arrive there completely isolated from the English language? How does this effect the contract and difficulties/barriers in teaching and operating as an employee?

Most private schools employ more than one foreign teacher - though they might not introduce you. They will also have (or be owned by) a Chinese English teacher. Foreign teachers are also commonly assigned an assistant who will have an English level slightly above that of your students. Your assistant will be primarily to assist you in class, but they may also do odd jobs for you like help with shopping and paying bills.

If you are working for a university, there will be many Chinese English teachers who will become friends with you. There is often a department or office in the University that is responsible for foreign affairs and will handle all your paperwork and accommodation details.

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Is there a particular way in which I should word my language in order to elicit certain definite language from the employer so as to more strongly impress upon them the concept of an absolute contract and that variations from it are not allowed?

Don't expect to be able to change them to your way of thinking. It will only cause you problems. You have to understand what they are thinking and why. Don't make them understand what you mean by the contract. Instead, understand what they mean by the contract. If you understand their system and adjust your expectations to match then you will be satisfied; but if you maintain your western expectations then you will be eternally disappointed.

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I don't want to get stuck in a situation where I am being taken advantage of

Oh you will be taken advantage of at some point. The trick is to expect it to happen then it won't shock you. The problem occurs when you are expecting a deal to be fair and then it turns out different. If not by your employer, then by someone else. Read the thread on the Beijing tea scam and similar.

[Senzhi]

Simon, Rincewind,

I use the "Business Explorer" series (Cambridge University Press). As it contains practically no grammar, I think it's only useful for corporate students that do have business experience and are already at an intermediate level of English.

I like these series, as they do present (simplified) study cases about international business culture, and not only about American/European businesses.
They are also set up particularly in accordance with adult education principles, something I haven't seen much in coursebooks in China so far.

[simonlaing]

Hey Barton,

I think Hangzhou's a cool place if you can get a decent salary with decent hours.

I've been to Hangzhou a bunch of times it is significantly more pretty than Suzhou. It is also a bikable city with bike lanes most places and around the lake. Like Suzhou it is a tourist city somewhat and will get the westerner just passing through. Though the train is one hour out of the south Shanghai train station, and it has it's own Airport which flies places on Asia Airlines (New budget line) I think.

I am told like ningbo it has a sizable red light district. In addition to it's stunning scenery (some of the best in China) it is close to other cool places, Jiangsu places, thousand lake pake, Hunan, Zhang Jia Jie look it up the Nytimes had a decent article.
As well as scenic and historical places I remember going to a silk factory, and buying authentic (with the stamp) red guard paraphenalia, and deng xiao ping, and Zhou enlai buttons, not so easy to find .

Zhou enlai single handily saved most of Hangzhou from decimatation of the Red Guards in the 60s and 70s.

It is a quality, place I think. Negotiate for good hours of working conditions because I am not sure what the amount of foreigners are there. It is also the head quarters of the China computer start up, and successful Ali Baba/ Taobao I think , The founder Ma was an english teacher before he was a Tychoon so there maybe opportuinities there.
Good Luck,
Simon:)

[Yiwu75]

I am an arab, I am not white but I have a Tesol certificate, Do you think I can get a teaching job in China???

[Rincewind]

Yes and Arab will find work here. I know several Nigerians (who are not white or native speakers) who are working here and teaching English as foreign experts. I think as long as you look foreign (not look Chinese) that is enough. You don't actually have to be white skinned with blue eyes and blond hair. However, there is definet prefference to American or English origins over other English speaking nations. These are the more marketable dialects. So don't be supprised if your schools advertises you as an English national even if you aren't.

[Likia]

你们好！

I am a college student who will be receiving their AA Degree in the Fall. Over winter break I am planning on getting a TESL certificate. I also have taken 2 semesters of 中文. Without a BA what are my chances at finding a decent job in China Teaching English with only the above credentials?
谢谢，

保罗
Paul

[nomad]

Check Dave's ESL Cafe, someone started a similar thread there.

There's talk in Beijing that the gov't is cracking down on people with improper documents (lack of degree, experience...). How long this will last and to what extent they're actually cracking down is unknown.

I would apply for jobs with what you got and see if any schools will take you.