Don't make me go "Green Pea" all over you.

[gao_bo_han]

I got so many great responses to my last topic on practicing Chinese with Chinese that I couldn't resist starting a new thread on the subject. Despite the intelligent comments by many fellow users as to the reasoning behind

Chinese refusing to speak Chinese with foreigners, and insisting on using English with foreigners, no matter HOW BAD their own English is, or even if the foreigner DOESN'T KNOW ENGLISH, I remain skeptical as to the real ulterior motives. I suspect the primary reason is the same as those wanting to practice any language: zisi zisi zisi!

Pazu, I am sure that you thought that Canadian was an asshole, and surely he was being one. If his Chinese was really as "twisted" as you claim, then surely it was unreasonable of him to insist on only using Chinese. But try this one on for size:

I met a guy in Taiwan during my semester abroad there who had been living in Taipei for eight years. Think about that: eight years! His name was Robby. He spent three years at the Mandarin Training Center at National Taiwan Normal University, and four years studying law at National Taiwan University (Tai-Da). For one of those years he also studied Taiwanese. And for the final year, he had been practicing law in Taiwan (working for an American corporation), negotiating contracts in Chinese, and doing a lot of legal translation work for his company. He is completely bilingual in Mandarin and English, and reads legal journals in Chinese without having to use a dictionary any more. Get the picture?

Now let me tell you about what happened when he, I, and a Chinese-American friend who knew virtually no Mandarin went out on a daytrip to Danshui. We all spoke in English, all being native speakers. The Chinese-American guy I didn't know well, but his parents taught him English instead of Chinese at home (his name was Feirong). Feirong was in the very first Chinese class at Shi-da MTC, and could barely say anything at all beyond greetings. Anyways, we walked around the beach...it was OK (it was kind of cold that day). We made our way into town and visited a local market. One of the locals shouted at Feirong in Taiwanese, and Robby shouted at the guy back in Taiwanese. The guy said in the worst English I've heared in my life, "You spoka Taiyu, hao lihai o! How you learn?" Then he turned to Feirong and said in Mandarin, "How did your friend learn?" He did not even give Robby a chance to respond. Robby and I understood, Feirong didn't. We translated and then I spoke to the guy in Mandarin, "He's a lawyer, he can speak both Mandarin and Taiwanese." Well, a little crowd had gathered by now. The guy kept trying to speak to Feirong over and over and over again in Mandarin, asking him about who we were, why he didn't know Chinese better, if we wanted to buy live fish or if he would have to kill it for us, etc. The conversation went on for a good ten minutes, and the ENTIRE time it was composed of Robby and I speaking to him in Mandarin, and the guy responding to Feirong (who clearly did not understand), us translating for Feirong, Feirong saying things in English to us, us translating back to the guy, etc etc etc! It went on like that until finally we just left in frustration. Robby said to the guy at the end in Taiwanese, "Sunkiaaaaaaaa!" (Goodbye).

I have never heard of anybody else studying any other foreign language having this kind of difficulty. Perhaps one reason is because other countries don't think a person should speak a language just because they are of that country's ethnicity. Who knows. But anyways, it is frustrating and comical, but as I have said before, an integral but unfortunate part of learning Chinese.

One last question for the skeptics. If Chinese don't use Chinese with foreigners because they either want to practice or for ease of communication, then why pathetically try over and over again to get huaqiao to understand them, even if they know English would be easier (and they could practice)? Just ask your white friends who study Chinese if this has ever happened to them...

As for the people who still deny our frustrations are legitimate, well...*sigh*...don't make me get all "Green Pea" up in here.

[weixiaoma]

It looks like you wouldn't have shouted at me for talking about racism like they all did on the other thread.

[geraldc]

There are over a billion people who speak Mandarin as a first language, and you claim they still ALL refuse to speak to you in Mandarin

You'll probably be better off trying to get a mandarin speaking friend to become a language partner, rather than just trying to get random people on the street to get involved in language exchange.

One of my teachers used to act as an interpreter, and about 20 years ago she used to think that all westerners were taught to lie and overstate their level of Chinese knowledge. She used to ask westerners she met in China how good their Chinese was, and for some reason they would all reply 马马虎虎, so she'd just launch straight into Mandarin at the level she'd assume someone who spoke Mandarin at a "马马虎虎" level would understand, however she would invariably discover that they couldn't understand her. 马马虎虎 was no doubt the standard phrase that they were taught for OK or so-so, which by their standards meant being able to say ni hao and mama huhu and nothing more.

[weixiaoma]

There are over a billion people who speak Mandarin as a first language, and you claim they still ALL refuse to speak to you in Mandarin Shocked

Of course I haven't gone up to more than a billion people individually and tried to talk to them. What I'm saying is all of the Chinese people I DO interact run accross and have reason to talk to at restaraunts, banks, movie theaters, the subway, at work, etc... USUALLY try to talk to me in English. And those who can't speak in English frequently refuse to talk at all, and just use hand gestures at me as if I'm some idiot.

You'll probably be better off trying to get a mandarin speaking friend to become a language partner, rather than just trying to get random people on the street to get involved in language exchange.

Sigh... it really seems like you don't get it. A langauge exchange means I am required to speak English some of the time. That's not really an immersion environment like Chinese students in America or Canada, or Austrailia, etc.. can get. A friend would be great. It's just that in almost 2 years of living here, EVERY friend I've made has wanted to talk to me in English. My whole goal in moving to China is to get an immersion environment and NOT speak English for a while. Just doing lots of conversation exchanges defeats the whole purpose. I could do that at home. BTW, someday, when my Chinese is totally fluent, I would gladly help my friends learn English. I just want a couple years of immersion first. Make sense?

[PollyWaffle]

maybe you are living in the wrong place... i have never had this problem!!, even when i wished they would speak to me in english... my girlfriend came here a month ago & everyone speaks to her in mandarin, even the guard on the gate will walk her to our door everyday the whole time talking to her in chinese.... she doesn't understand & speaks back in english... (i am actually geting a little worried about those two)...

the only time i have remotely had this problem was in places like shanghai, but when i spoke in mandarin they always spoke back in chinese, not english...

alternatively, are you talking about the kooks who approach you in the street saying stuff like, 'i like to speak english. i like to have friends who speak english'... this is certainly annoying & their agenda in clear but if you speak back in a made up language they go away, or say really fast, 'mate, i haven't seen ya fa ages, wotcha bin upta? she's right if i come over for tea tonight? shit ya don't look the same since the operation', etc.

[Lu]

Polly, same for me. Sometimes people I talk to start in English, but they usually switch to Chinese as soon as they hear I understand that. The xiaojie at ShiDa where I had to baoming started in English, I asked her to speak Chinese to me, she apologized and continued in Chinese. Even the student who picked me up at the airport and shows me around at the uni, and whose English is excellent due to a year in the US, speaks Chinese to me at least half of the time.

I don't know what the big difference would be between me and Wei Xiaoma that causes people to act exactely opposite to him as to me.

[Green Pea]

geraldc wrote:

One of my teachers used to act as an interpreter, and about 20 years ago she used to think that all westerners were taught to lie and overstate their level of Chinese knowledge.

20 years ago? LMAO! You must be joking? BTW, if an interpreter was trying to test my Chinese, she wouldn't have even got mamahuhu out of me.

You'll probably be better off trying to get a mandarin speaking friend to become a language partner, rather than just trying to get random people on the street to get involved in language exchange.

weixiaoma is right. You have no clue.

weixiaoma wrote:

My whole goal in moving to China is to get an immersion environment and NOT speak English for a while.

It made sound silly, but just stop speaking English. Don't make friends (Chinese or others) who even utter a word of English. You've got to put your goals ahead being friendly. It sucks, I know, it's just really the only way. You have to immerse yourself, because no one else knows or will likely respect your goals.

[PollyWaffle]

the more i think about this the more i disagree... in fact from my experience, those chinese who can speak a little english will hold back out of embarassment or whatever... the second day i arrived, i was in beijing with two friends who wanted to ge to a interent cafe... they found one but had to sign in... in one of the columns was passport number, in chinese of course... i was lingering near the door & heard my friend say three or four times 'what's this'... i came over, had a look & sed 'they want your passport number'... the girl, who was standing watching my friend's confusion then sed in a condescending voice, 'yes, passport number'... she could have told him in english the whole time but her choice was not to...

[weixiaoma]

Actually, I overstated myself in that last post. Even now, I'd be willing to help a friend with English sometimes. I just wouldn't want "friends" who insist on regularly using English to talk to me, and then speak in Chinese to everyone else.

I really do wish us foreigners learning Chinese could get the same immersion environment as Chinese people who study in the west... sigh. Maybe someday.

[weixiaoma]

maybe you are living in the wrong place... i have never had this problem!!, even when i wished they would speak to me in english... my girlfriend came here a month ago & everyone speaks to her in mandarin, even the guard on the gate will walk her to our door everyday the whole time talking to her in chinese.... she doesn't understand & speaks back in english... (i am actually geting a little worried about those two)...

Yeah, I think you're right, Poly Waffle. All of the foreign looking people I've met here who speak fluently have studied in mainland China. I kinda wanna go there too. I've heard that people there are much less English-crazed than Taiwanese or HKers. Is there a Mandarin center in your school? I guess I gotta save money for another year or two now... I already spent my savings studying in Taiwan. While I'm here though, I'm gonna make the best of it!

I don't know what the big difference would be between me and Wei Xiaoma that causes people to act exactely opposite to him as to me.

Well Lu, you did say that some people talk to you in English... and it's not even your mother language. So, I wouldn't say they act the opposite to you. It does seem like you've done really well, though. I have a LOT of buddies here who have the same problems with locals wanting to use English with them as I do. But hey! We live in the same city! How about you just introduce me to some of your local friends, and I will be a VERY greatful 小馬

[Green Pea]

weixiaoma, I really think you've got to change your approach. No one is going to give you the right environment. You've got to create it and take it for yourself. I created my own immersion. I don't speak English with people unless they pay me. If I want people to speak with me in Chinese, I pay them. End of story. Unless you absolutely have to use English only for your work, then at all other times just refuse. I am a hard English target. People say hello to me, I ignore them. People switch to English with me, I force it to the point of rudeness. People ask me (in English of course) if I can read Chinese while I'm standing there reading the newspaper. I stare back at them like they're an earthworm. Many people with whom I come in daily contact with don't like me. I just won't be addressed in English and I won't reply in English. I don't go to stores or restaurants that speak to me in English. I don't buy stuff from places that think I'm a free English tutor. I make friends with Koreans and Japanese.

Is it fun? No, it's not. I've just decided that a little short-term pain with pay off later. Actually, I've been a little more accomodating lately. This is because my Chinese has reached a point where I can handle most things.

I don't know about racism, discrimination, respect, or any other potential cause of the problem. I don't care. I just want to solve the problem for myself, and I have. I never want to make charges of racism when money and a little coldness will solve the problem.

[yonglan]

gao_bo_han, you're mostly right on the money. I would enter one major quarrel with you, however.

It's not a Chinese thing exclusively. Japanese are much the same; some would argue worse.

It is definitely an ego thing. When I lived in Kaoshiung my Chinese was pretty bad, but people spoke to me in Chinese because they didn't know English. When I lived in Taipei my Chinese was very good, and I had all these annoying experiences with people trying to speak English with me so badly that I had trouble even understanding the simplest sentences they uttered -- and I've taught English in three different countries! I would beg them to speak Chinese. I can (and have) speak Chinese to complete strangers for hours (I like to talk). Nope they wouldn't budge.

Of course, other people who tried to speak English with me spoke passably or even well, but that's not the point -- and I told them so

Even in Taipei there are some rare folks who will speak Chinese with you. And you can get a language exchange partner. Though of course it drives one crazy to think the only practice you're getting with the the target language is with a language exchange partner -- I could have stayed home and done that.

The catch 22 seems to be that those who want to know foreigners want to practice their English for free and those who don't want to speak English have no interest in foreigners. And unless your overseas Chinese, you are a foreigner.

[Yuchi]

weixiaoma, I really think you've got to change your approach. No one is going to give you the right environment. You've got to create it and take it for yourself. I created my own immersion. I don't speak English with people unless they pay me. If I want people to speak with me in Chinese, I pay them. End of story. Unless you absolutely have to use English only for your work, then at all other times just refuse. I am a hard English target. People say hello to me, I ignore them. People switch to English with me, I force it to the point of rudeness. People ask me (in English of course) if I can read Chinese while I'm standing there reading the newspaper. I stare back at them like they're an earthworm. Many people with whom I come in daily contact with don't like me. I just won't be addressed in English and I won't reply in English. I don't go to stores or restaurants that speak to me in English. I don't buy stuff from places that think I'm a free English tutor. I make friends with Koreans and Japanese.

Is it fun? No, it's not. I've just decided that a little short-term pain with pay off later. Actually, I've been a little more accomodating lately. This is because my Chinese has reached a point where I can handle most things.

I don't know about racism, discrimination, respect, or any other potential cause of the problem. I don't care. I just want to solve the problem for myself, and I have. I never want to make charges of racism when money and a little coldness will solve the problem.

Are you going to change your approaches anytime soon in the future? I can't imagine being "cold" towards everyone in the country I currently live in forever.

Also, I forget if you mentioned before, but where in china do you live in?

[yonglan]

Green Pea, just speak to people in Chinese when they speak English. Pretend you don't understand a word they are saying and ask them in Chinese what they are saying. Or ask them "Are you Korean (or some other nationality)?" When they say no, they're Chinese/Taiwanese, you ask "Then why are you speaking English?" It's worth a try. I had some success with that.

[roddy]

I ignore them . . .

to the point of rudeness . . .

like they're an earthworm . . .

Apologies if you've answered this elsewhere already GreenPea, but did you ever try being polite? I mean, I can understand the motivation for not wanting to speak English, but I don't see what you get out of not wanting to be polite.

Roddy

[geraldc]

You do realise that even when you are "fluent" etc, unless people have already met you and know your language ability, all the shop staff who currently speak to you in English (be it due to their "racism" or some nefarious Chinese plot to prevent westerners from developing decent Chinese skills) will still try and speak to you in English. When you're fluent, a magic sign doesn't appear over your head that reads "Fluent in Chinese, speak to me in Chinese". It will probably get even worse, what with the Beijing Olympics and the govt push to increase the numbers of people speaking English etc.

If you don't like communicating with Chinese people in English, what makes you think communicating with them in Chinese will be better. It does come across as very arrogant refusing to speak to Chinese people who speak to you in English, especially as they are trying to help you. Rather than just ingnoring them you could couch things in nicer terms, e.g. explain in English, that you have come to learn Chinese, and please could they repeat the phrase they've just said, but this time in Chinese, as it would help you learn. Imagine if in your early days of learning Chinese, when you tried to speak to someone in Chinese, all they did was just reply "什么？"

You don't just learn a language, but you also learn some of the culture, when people speak to you in English, a lot of the time they are trying to be helpful, as it's part of the culture. You are a guest in China, you're not just there to learn their language as cheaply as possible and insult/belittle the locals before returning home.

Surely learning Chinese is about learning how to communicate with Chinese people, if some Chinese prefer to communicate with westerners using English, it's just something you have to come to terms with.

[yonglan]

geraldc, I *think* that what Mr/Ms. Pea is referring to is as I explained above where it is obvious the person can't put together a simple sentence in English and Pea (or whoever) can speak Chinese reasonably well. And yet the person (this happens _a lot_) refuses to acknowledge reality and continues to prolong the agony. And no, there's not a lot of communication going on there.

Again, if one is in China/Taiwan, well doesn't that seem to imply anything about the way things ought to go?

[Adam]

only rudeness i find is if a person refuses to speak chinese with you, after they know you can speak Chinese. Most often when Chinese speak to me in English I dont feel they are trying to help me, but instead are trying to help themselves. Especially with their dumb questions. Refusing to speak chinese in China is rude.

[Green Pea]

Are you going to change your approaches anytime soon in the future? I can't imagine being "cold" towards everyone in the country I currently live in forever.

Probably not, because it works. Did I say I was cold to everyone? You are extrapolating. 99% of the time, I am the warmest, happiest person one will meet on any given day. Most people around where I live really enjoy when I come by. I don’t treat 服务员’s like shit, unlike most Chinese. I make ‘em smile. I take an interest in their lives. I say funny stuff and get people laughing.

Green Pea, just speak to people in Chinese when they speak English. Pretend you don't understand a word they are saying and ask them in Chinese what they are saying.

That’s what I do, I speak in Chinese. Most times I really don’t understand what they are saying (in English)! I take over the direction of the conversation from the outset. I establish right away that Chinese will be spoken. 99% of the time, this works. I don’t “practice” Chinese, I “speak” it. That’s a critical distinction to make. I don’t go around looking for language partners, or “begging” people to speak to me in Chinese. I just do it. Restaurants, bars, and stores are really poor places to try to get anywhere. You’re much better hitting a real estate agent because they have the time for small talk and give you the opportunity to learn more complicated and practical stuff. Have them take you around and look at a few places. Then take what you’ve learned, and go the next one next door. Test yourself with the next agent. Hit 5 in one afternoon. That’s the stuff I do.

Apologies if you've answered this elsewhere already GreenPea, but did you ever try being polite? I mean, I can understand the motivation for not wanting to speak English, but I don't see what you get out of not wanting to be polite.

I’m very polite. Rarely am I rude. Some people just need a little harder shake than most. This is very important…I’m only rude when I think people that are being jerks or say stupid stuff. For example, someone will follow me around a store and stick a book in my face and ask me how to say this in English. Another: I’ll be sitting with a Korean friend speaking Chinese. A Chinese guy will turn to my friend and say in Chinese to the Korean, “Wow, that laowai can speak Chinese”. He’ll then to turn to me and ask me in English what country I from. WTF? People like this will get a little rap-tap-tap. Let me say again, this situation is RARE. Maybe I encounter it once a month.

What I do is break people out of the habit of thinking that all foreigners will respond in English and/or don’t speak Chinese. Now, sometimes this is done by speaking English. You heard me correctly. For example, the other day I take a new Chinese friend to this new western style bar-ish type restaurant. We sit down, and I’m chatting with my friend in Chinese as someone comes over and asks me what I want in English, of course. I expect that so no big deal. I respond to her in English and then ask my friend in Chinese what she wants and repeat that back in English to the waitress. I can see her starting to feel uneasy but she gets the order and when she comes back, she goes over to my friend and tells her that my Chinese is “very good”. Was I rude? No. Did I speak Chinese to the waitress? No. Did she get a little shock? Yes and then spoke to me in Chinese from then on out.

There are no hard and fast rules. Every situation is usually different. However, I do want to go around with the attitude that I speak Chinese with everyone. The difference between me and some here who are having this problem is that I am not afraid to mess with people.

You don't just learn a language, but you also learn some of the culture, when people speak to you in English, a lot of the time they are trying to be helpful, as it's part of the culture. You are a guest in China, you're not just there to learn their language as cheaply as possible and insult/belittle the locals before returning home.

Like I stated above, it’s a rare situation. You are right. Most people are trying to be helpful and I respect that. However, what you fail to realise is that China is my home. I live here. I have my own business here. I’ve got all my stuff here. I have no other place to call home.

only rudeness i find is if a person refuses to speak chinese with you, after they know you can speak Chinese. Most often when Chinese speak to me in English I dont feel they are trying to help me, but instead are trying to help themselves. Especially with their dumb questions. Refusing to speak chinese in China is rude.

Adam, exactly. I think you get it. There are times, however, when people make stupid comments when you are standing nearby thinking you can’t understand them. It just depends on the situation whether or not I’ll interject.

[weixiaoma]

That was really well said, greenpea. It summs up most of my feelings about the subject. I won't say racism because it makes everyone here so angry, but it's about racial stereotypes. I also, enjoy showing people that NOT every white person can speak English, and that many can speak Chinese.

Work is a bummer, though. Everyone talks to my ABC coworker in Chinese, even when he speaks English to them. And they aren't too willing to Chinese with me. I have been slowly getting them to by asking, complaining, and plain repeating all of their English back to them. Like if they say, "Hey , the stuff isn't here yet!" I'll reply, "東西還沒來哦?" Then, they'll say, "Can you call Mr. Wu?", and I'll say, "噢. 你想我打電話給吳先生嗎?". It's a VERY slow process that I'm sure I'll have to repeat every time I switch jobs, but it seems to be making some progress. After all, I can't go "greanpea" on people at work

What do you usually say when you wanna get people to cut it with the English, and you have to talk to them for some reason, Greenpea? Also, what city are you in? I'm betting it's a lot less English crazed than Taipei.