Advice needed to go beyond intermediate level

[spetsnaz84]

Hi,

 

Let me first introduce myself: I am a 30 year old male living in Western Europe. Almost three years ago, I married my Chinese wife and we have been living together happily. From the moment we got married I started studying Chinese with some ups and downs. I took an evening course here and there and some private tutoring but I was never happy with the former as I had already progressed beyond the highest level they offered and the latter option was getting too expensive.

 

 

I recently passed HSK-4 but I still find my level of Chinese to have significant shortcomings. Especially when having a face-to-face conversation with my inlaws, communication is poor. Online typed communication over QQ is smoother (not in the least because I can easily resort to a dictionary when needed).

 

In the past I did a lots of memrise, but I never liked the changes in 1.0 after the beta release. I have also been using fluentu recently which is definitely nice (I like the multimedia integration a lot) but they still don't have a mobile app unfortunately.

 

Regarding reading, I have read most of the Chinese breeze novels. It has given me a big sense of accomplishment to see how in the beginning I could barely read the level 1 books and now I am waiting impatiently for some level 4 books to be published (will this happen ?). I try to listen to the audio in the car but it's simply not easy to divide your attention between the traffic and the Chinese - it latter requires my full focus to understand it, the former my full focus not to have an accident

 

Probably you will point out my wife should help me with this and sometimes we do converse in Chinese but my wife is currently pre-occupied with her job and learning my language (I try to impose a 'no English' rule at home with varied success so far)

 

With respect to listening I have also tried watching some of the 'jia you er nv' episodes but I have to admit it's still too difficult for me. Fine, maybe I can understand 20-30 % of it but it's still not enough.

 

In general I find there is a significant disconnect between my passive reading knowledge of the language and my spoken active part. Another problem is that learning the language in a Western country is not that obvious. Also, learning the language more or less all by myself, I have nobody to share my frustrations with. Normally I am a quite competitive person but as there is nobody to compete with, I am not pushed hard enough to make progress.

 

I am looking forward to hear your advice (tools, materials, methodology,..)

 

Paul

[Shelley]

As I am not at the level you are at I am not sure if my advice will be just repeating things you already know, but here goes anyway.

 

As you say you like a bit of competitiveness I would suggest maybe using some sort of SRS flashcards as this will "judge" you and give you goals and stages to reach.

 

I like Pleco you may be familiar with it, so I will just say if not, go check out the website here     https://www.pleco.com/

 

I also like Skritter if your budget can stretch to it. http://www.skritter.com/

 

For a bit more of an interactive workout there are quite a few topics here on this forum with various group activities to join in. In fact you have made a good choice in joining the Chinese forums, lots of good people willing to help with learning Chinese and all sorts of associated other things.

 

I am sure if you hang around for a while you will get some much better suggestions than mine, but I just wanted to say hello and welcome you to the forums.

 

Hope it goes well

[li3wei1]

Get some tutors or language exchange partners on Skype, let your wife see that they are attractive females, then maybe she'll start cooperating more with your language learning efforts.   

 

Seriously, you could also try talking regularly with your inlaws. Your wife may take pity on them, and help you improve.

 

There are plenty more graded readers out there, see this thread.

 

And 20-30% of a TV show isn't bad. Keep watching, get some transcripts, watch again, slow it down, whatever it takes. Or find something easier. But keep practicing and your experience will be as it was with the readers.

[Silent]

I guess the only way to really get into the more advanced levels is by actually using the language. With only study it's very hard to learn a language to a high level.

 

 

Probably you will point out my wife should help me with this and sometimes we do converse in Chinese but my wife is currently pre-occupied with her job and learning my language (I try to impose a 'no English' rule at home with varied success so far)

IMHO using is the clue to learning a language, so yes, her of your inlaws or maybe her friends. Not sure how much english is spoken and what your native language is (I assume not english) you might opt to divide the week. Three days a week Chinese, three days you language and 1 day English. Or maybe switch languages every day between Chinese and your language with half an hour a day or so English. If you are clearly boxing your languages it may be much easier to commit and stick to it. If you can't cope in the language of the day save the issue for the other/english time frame.

 

 

With respect to listening I have also tried watching some of the 'jia you er nv' episodes but I have to admit it's still too difficult for me. Fine, maybe I can understand 20-30 % of it but it's still not enough.

A good way to improve listening is listening over and over again. Loop a piece of audio, a sntence or a couple of sentences, and keep listening till you know what is said, then check if it's correct in the transcript or subtitles. It takes a lot of time, but after going through a couple of episodes like this you're likely to understand most of what's said.

 

 

In general I find there is a significant disconnect between my passive reading knowledge of the language and my spoken active part.

Again, using, so speaking in this case, is the way to go. If you have no-one to practice talking it might help to start writing. That would help you activate passive vocabulary so the words will come easier when needed.

[JenniferW]

What about one-to-one sessions each week with a personal tutor?  I did that last year, and made really good progress.  I found someone locally (in England) who'd actually got a fair amount of teaching experience.  Because it was one-to-one, I could set the agenda, and although it was only one session a week, it gave me good structure to work with on the other days of the week.  I found this tutor by contacting a college where they'd run a beginner's Chinese course - I asked if they'd put me in touch with the teacher (and they did).

[Bad Cao Cao]

Very few non-natives make it to C1+. An even smaller subset make it to C1+ by living outside of Chinese speaking areas, and not many of this elite subset hang out on forums like this.

 

The advice you will get here will be variable, at best. Useless, most of the time. Advice from native speakers will be even worse.

 

You are better off making a list of non-natives that have learnt to C1, and, have never lived in China, then ask them directly. 

[gato]

You might consider looking for online tutors on italki.com.  People seem to have had good experience with it.

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/31769-italki/

italki

[ChTTay]

"You are better off making a list of non-natives that have learnt to C1, and, have never lived in China, then ask them directly. " Bas Cao Cao

How would one compile such a list? Out of curiousity? Post an advert? :-)

[imron]

See also this thread.

[imron]

@bad cao cao, you are right. Some of the advice the OP gets here will be useless. Also note OP is not necessarily aiming for C1.

@OP, see the thread above for a post of mine containing links for suggestions on how to work on various skills. If you find a particular skill lacking, then specifically drilling that skill daily for a period of time (min 1 month, 3 months more ideal) will have a positive effect.

Regarding competition, there is always someone to compete against - your past self! Find ways to measure progress for a specific skill and make sure that each day you're a little better than the previous day.

Use something like http://dontbreakthechain.com or my own 100% for motivation and tracking.

[Shelley]

"The advice you will get here will be variable, at best. Useless, most of the time."

 

A blanket statement like this needs clarification.

 

Do you mean the advice given to this question or on the forums as a whole?

 

Either way I would have to disagree, there is a lot of very useful advice and information given on these forums.

 

The OP, I think wasn't really looking for a single, concrete, absolutely correct answer to the question, I think they wanted to hear the experiences and methods other people used to progress in learning Chinese and then using their own judgment, decide what would work for them.

 

As with any advice given by what are in essence complete strangers to you on the internet, you must apply common sense and your own good judgment,

but that doesn't mean the all the advice is useless just needs to be examined carefully.

[imron]

Do you mean the advice given to this question or on the forums as a whole?

See post #6 for a perfect example. The advice given is of little to no use.

[Shelley]

Ah I see

 

Point taken.

[spetsnaz84]

First of all, I wanted to thank everybody for their inputs and warm welcome. Maybe I will try to become more involved in this community - learning together is definitely more motivating than all alone.

 

I want to comment on a few replies:

- http://dontbreakthechain.com/ is definitely something I will use. As we all know one of the main impediments to make real progress in life (be it learning Chinese or other goals) is one's own indolence. I will try this tool to fight this trait of mine

- Somebody pointed out it is nearly impossible to reach C1+ skill by not living in China: maybe you are right, but if I reach C1 level fluency, that will already be a major step ahead.

- I am still looking for the best SRS tool out there. All of the tools have their good and bad sides. Memrise is great in terms of SRS algorithm and decks but the translations often lack context. Fluentu provides a lot of good context with each item but the SRS algorithm is really not good. I did like the 'already know it' option of Fluentu. I had a look at Anki and tried one of the most popular decks but it did not come with pinyin which is still something I needed to memorize the correct tones. Are Pleco, Skritter any better ?

- A few months ago I passed the HSK-4. I am now doubting whether I should go for HSK-5. I feel I am 'studying for the test'  and that does not always help you so much in the real world, on the other hand, it is a very clear, quantifiable goal (which is really need) and milestone of my skill. So maybe, this is also a question to you guys: how do you set clear goals for yourself ? how do you measure progress ? (besides vocabulary)

[Shelley]

"Are Pleco, Skritter any better ?"

 

In a word yes. IMHO these two are the best of their type that I am aware of.

 

They both have free/trial versions so give them a try.

 

As for taking HSK tests I think this is up to you, tests are good to get you to work hard. But there is also nothing like real world practice to really cement things in your brain in my opinion.

 

Sounds like you have good study practices to have reach HSK4, so I would continue with that attitude.

[imron]

I am still looking for the best SRS tool out there.

For Chinese learning, in my opinion, this is Pleco with the paid flashcard module and paid dictionaries (Guifan Chinese-Chinese and ABC Chinese-English).  The main reason is the combined dictionary and flashcards reduce flashcard creation and maintenance time to zero.  Look up a word in your dictionary, click the '+' button and the word is added.

 

You can configure it to then automatically create cards with different fronts and backs depending on what you want to test, and there are plenty of options to support drilling outside of the main SRS algorithm (I describe my basic Pleco setup here).

 

Skritter is good for helping with production (which also aids in recognition).  The forums currently has a Skritter giveaway and there are probably a few vouchers left, so head on over to the Skritter giveaway thread and ask.

 

As for progress, it can be difficult to measure and easy to fall in to the trap of spending more time measuring than studying.  What I would do is first decide on a specific aspect that you would like to work on - reading, listening, speaking etc.  Then decide to focus on that for a given period of time (1 month is the minimum amount of time I think it takes to notice improvement, 3 months is probably more ideal).  Then practice drills and exercises designed to improve that area (make sure to practice daily).  At the end of that period, go back and look at the material you were using at the beginning of that period and check whether you find it easier or harder to understand.  That's a great way to get a motivational progress boost, but you need to a) wait some time between each check and b) be practising regularly during that time otherwise you won't really notice any change.

 

Another good way is to count things like newspaper articles, or novels read.  At HSK-4, novels are probably still outside of your comfort zone, but you might find graded readers quite useful (see here for a growing list).  Comics might also be a good choice.

[Basil]

 

 

Regarding reading, I have read most of the Chinese breeze novels.

 

What's a Chinese breeze novel?

 

 

 

 

Very few non-natives make it to C1+. An even smaller subset make it to C1+ by living outside of Chinese speaking areas, and not many of this elite subset hang out on forums like this.

 

Any chance someone could whip up a Venn diagram of this one?

[Shelley]

Chinese Breeze novels are a set of graded novels so you can pick a story at a level you can read.

 

I am sure if you did a search, you would find out more, I don't use them so I haven't got any more details.

[Basil]

Oh right, I thought he just meant Chinese novels that are a breeze to get through.

[Shelley]

I think that's what they are trying to imply in as much as you should be able to breeze through a novel that is at your level but that's only a guess.