Intensive Chinese Course - What to Expect ?

[French]

I am a 30 years old French guy and after being a restaurant owner for the past 6 years, I am, somehow, needed a break. Mainly because the business was getting very stagnant and I need some new goals.

 

So, I decided to take a break and I will arrive in Shanghai on the 25th. I want to improve my Chinese during my 3 months holidays time there. I looked a few private schools (perhaps around 15 or so) offering intensive Chinese courses. 

 

I would like to know what level I can realistically achieve achieve in 3 months times. I passed HSK2, so I'm quite the beginner. Of course, I would like something like HSK6 but it could be quite difficult. I will also ask this question to the various schools, so I can notice which schools are over promising results. 

 

Are there some things I need to look out for when I will be interviewing those schools ? I already made my own arrangement regarding my accommodation.

 

Thanks.  

[dementior]

Hi there!

have you made already your choice about the city? I mean shanghai is not the best place for immersing yourself in full chinese environment... There is plenty of French people there...

 

It will be very hard for you to avoid going for beers or going out with expats in shanghai, if you can still consider it why not move to a smaller and cheaper city??

If you do not want to go to the north I think Hangzhou or Suzhou would be better than Shanghai, although the tuition fee is going to be similar. If I remember properly in all these cities one-to-one hour will cost you at least 100-120 yuan. If you go to the north lets say shenyang, dalian, harbin you will be paying about 60 for one-to-one

 

If you want to progress fast I would go for one-to-one with 3 or 4 hours a day of class never more than that. You need time to settle all the things you learn and you need time to practice as well on the street. Try to combine as well speaking class with writing and reading and my recommendation would be: do not spend time writing the characters yourself... just use computer and phone to remember them.

 

In 3 months studying very hard I think you can get to HSK 4 but other two exams... you need more time...

good luck!

[French]

Thank you for you insights dementior. 

 

I've been to China a few times already and never visited Shanghai. Thought it be a good occasion for me to go there and see the city for myself in order to blow off some steam. I already booked the apartment, so I think I'll go there even if it's not the best option to learn Mandarin. 

Aside from the fact that there are lots of expats, Chinese people there tend to use 上海话. 

[makochan]

 

 

I would like to know what level I can realistically achieve achieve in 3 months times.

 

I think it basically comes down to the number of hours you are willing to invest during those 3 months.  Taking a look at Olle's blog, Scott Young passed HSK 4 in about 100 days.  You can see his interview on Vimeo.

 

Don't know if you already know about your fellow countryman Julien Gaudfroy who has reached a very high level of Chinese, but he talks about studying "literally 8-10 hours a day for four years".  But it's definitely encouraging to see that discipline and sheer motivation can take you very far if you are willing.

[James3]

I second dementior's concern. In Shanghai, you may learn standard Mandarin, but if you try and start a conversation on the street, on the way back to your room, more than likely the person on the street will be speaking their local dialect, Shanghainese. Whereas some place like Harbin is known for the locals on the street speaking pretty much standard Mandarin. (Disclaimer: I've not gone to China to study yet, but have spent a lot of time exploring schools, cities, etc.)

Whatever option you end up pursuing, though, wish you the best!

 

Edit: Sorry, French, I just reread this...and this time noticed you already made your own arrangements for accomodation. So I should add, that originally when I thought I wanted to go to Beijing, I checked into all sorts of schools. Some of the Beijing schools also had offices in Shanghai. One of them that stuck in my head had a unique feature, regarding the day's notes. Instead of you having to worry about taking down notes, they would record them for you...and place them in a shared area, where you could later that day (once you got back to your room, for example) log on, and review them at your leisure. This seemed like quite a convenience. I don't know if you've come across that with the schools you've contacted, or not, but just thought I'd throw that out there. If all the schools are the same price, but only one of them offers that, that might be a selling point. Just a thought.

[anonymoose]

It will be very hard for you to avoid going for beers or going out with expats in shanghai

 

I've lived in Shanghai for more than 7 years, and if I'm not mistaken, I've only been for beers with other expats once. And that would also have been easily avoidable.

 

I don't think hanging out with other expats is a reason for not learning Chinese - it's just a good excuse for those that don't really have their heart in learning Chinese. If you want to avoid other foreigners, it's perfectly possible.

 

In Shanghai, you may learn standard Mandarin, but if you try and start a conversation on the street, on the way back to your room, more than likely the person on the street will be speaking their local dialect Shanghaiese.

 

Rubbish. Unless you initiate the conversation in Shanghainese, you will not get a response in Shanghainese.

 

Standard mandarin is very much dependent on level of education. For anyone university educated, they will have more or less standard mandarin whereever they are from. In fact, I'd say that apart from a few very minor pronunciation issues (not distinguishing n and ng), my shanghainese acquaintances have better standard mandarin than most Beijingers or northeasterners because they learn Mandarin as a separate language rather than just tacking it on to their own dialect. And besides, there are so many non-Shanghai natives in Shanghai, especially amongst the younger population, that you will have access to people from all over China.

 

 

Are there some things I need to look out for when I will be interviewing those schools ?

 

You could ask about things like class size, homework expectations, what books they use, whether they place an emphasis on oral or written work, and so on. But in the end, the biggest determinant to how much you will learn will be your own study habits and discipline. And I don't think going from HSK2 to 6 in three months is realistic. If you work hard, you may get to 4, but you're looking at at least a year of hard work if you want a 6.

[jobm]

I passed HSK 4 after a year in my university, I only had 6 hours of formal classes a week. Having already passed HSK 2, I think you could pass HSK 4 after 3 months of intensive classes in China! Jia you!

 

On the other hand, HSK is just like any other test. Personally, I do not think that my Mandarin skills are on what you would expect as high as level 4. The Chinese I know is very bookish, it is just all in my brain. I could introduce myself in Chinese but I still forget sometimes the words for numbers or the prepositions which are very basic. It is good to be motivated by the HSK but I think what weighs more than that certificate is the the competency to use and understand the language in different situations.

 

I have read in this forum that private schools have like trial classes which you could check out before enrolling. I think this could yield better results from attending a university because you have control on your classes and on your progress

[Tianjin42]

This is all good advice and incidentally I would agree that the language is a factor in Shanghai. Obviously young people speak standard putonghua and you can initiate conversations in that language but I feel the pronunciation issues can be a troublesome and also there is a lot to be said for being surrounded by the language - over-hearing it for example. You will over hear a lot of Shanghaiese in Shanghai. 

 

My main advice though is not to measure progress in days or weeks. If you do a week and think "I know nothing" it won't end well. You need to think "I will dedicate myself to this for six weeks (at least) before stopping and considering what sort of progress I have made". That will help. 

[French]

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for your insights and your support.

@dementior & James3 : I have been to China several times already but never really visited Shanghai. I don't know when I'm gonna have another opportunity like this (e.g having so much free time), so I chose Shanghai because it's the only main city I have never visited. Plus, I already paid for my accommodation, so there's no turning back now.

Maybe this is not the wisest choice, maybe I just got sold on the "Chinese dream" if there is one. Despite of the obvious strong use of 上海话 and the presence of lots of foreigners, I want to take my chances there.

@makochan : Thank you for the info. It's been very helpful and I didn't know those 2 guys but viewing their videos, I got even more fired up towards learning Chinese.

@anonymoose : reaching HSK 4 would be a great start. There seems to be a consensus about my learning curve, so it's a good starting point to filter some schools out.

Right now, I'm really motivated and I can't wait to get started. I plan on studying (class + homework) 10 hours each day, 6 days out of 7. During my "free" day, I will visit and explore Shanghai.

@jobm : I don't necessarily look to pass an HSK level, but it's a good common basis academic wise. I really want to be comfortable in a Chinese environment and talk casually with locals. If I can get there at first, it would be great.

@Tianjin42 : thanks for the advice, I'm sure it'll prove to be useful soon when I start my Chinese course.

Again, I want to thank all of you, your posts really give me an extra bit of motivation. Hope all goes smoothly.

[James3]

French, had you seen this yet. He mentions Miracle Mandarin, as well as another one there in Shanghai.

 

Good luck!

[French]

@James3 : thank you, I spent a few hours researching for any reviews about school. I already seen the topic. I ended visiting lots of adds websites such as thebeijinger or smartshanghai and so on.

I already set up 7 meetings with schools after contacting at least 15 of them. I'll see where it goes from there. I will report my feedback about my meetings and my final choice, I'm sure it would help some others out there in the future.

Right now, those are the 7 schools I will be meeting :

- Mandarin House

- Hutong school

- Wowo mandarin

- that's Mandarin

- mandarin tree

- mandarin garden

- Miracle mandarin

[James3]

@French I recognize some of those from my search. Seems like you're doing your "due diligence." That's great. Look forward to reading about your findings.

[French]

After a week of searching the right school for me, I finally chosen one and been studying there for a week.

At first, you can separate schools in "place quality", how big they are and how well they are localized. In Shanghai, they are all in Jing'An district where you can find a lot of foreigners and foreign businesses (restaurants and small businesses).

I would say :

- High end schools, place wise, Mandarin House, Mandarin Garden and Miracle Mandarin. If I would rate Mandarin House as a 10, then Mandarin Garden would be a 8 and Miracle Mandarin a 6.5

- Hutong School and That's Mandarin, around 5

- SN Mandarin (I haven't listed this school above but I ended up visiting it), 3

- Mandarin Tree, 2

- Wowo mndarin, 1

But I was looking for quality teaching, I did not care about the conditions of it.

Given the fact that I am Chinese French (but I don't speak Mandarin with my parents, just my native dialect), I reached naturally a certain level of listening/speaking even without "really" practicing it (family, family's friends, now everybody uses WeChat which forced to learn pinyin and to read Chinese at a basic level). Because there are not many students like me, I couldn't fit in a class at once.

For selecting reasons purposes, I chose a very high target as my goal : reading Chinese newspapers and be able to talk about it.

All the interviews were done in Mandarin.

I'll now rate how well you are received given the fact I wanted to register for 3 months of intensive course, I expected to get a good reception. I'll use the same rating system :

- SN Mandarin, they immediately gave me a very warm reception and I met with a teacher. After evaluating my Chinese level (at least, HSK4 speaking/listening, HSK2 writing/reading) , we discussed the studying plan which ended up being quite good regarding my needs. This is a 10. I stayed here for almost 2 hours.

- Mandarin tree, same here, except I was received by the "boss" or someone high in the food chain. The place was quite small, it was in a small apartment. The reception was very good and I got a good feeling after my first meeting, evaluating my level and discussing my studying plan. This was also a 10 at first. But on my second meeting, my opinion changed radically. I was given a free lesson to see if I would be satisfied but it was with another teacher. It was way off my needs. That brought the rating way down. I would say a final rating of 6.

- Mandarin House, I met my contact there and I was given a second meeting to meet one teacher. The person was extremely polite. I met an experienced teacher which inspired some confidence. The program wasn't to my liking but it was something. I was given another another whole morning of free lesson (group class and 1on1). The experience was quite good but it confirmed the fact that I couldn't fit in a class. I was in a 4 people class, while I could perfectly understand and speak to others, I couldn't read as proficiently as the rest of them.

The 1on1 meeting was great, I got another experienced teacher who understood my needs. The feeling was great but we didn't discuss enough a step by step program. The rating is 8

- Mandarin Garden. I was well received and met 2 teachers. We discussed the studying plan. I wasn't thrilled by the programs but as reception goes, this was a 10

- Hutong School and That's mandarin. Everything was average and I felt like those schools couldn't understand my needs. The rating is 4.

- Wowo mandarin, the rating is 3.

- Miracle Mandarin, I was well received and I could meet a teacher in the afternoon (came during the morning) . The experience was great and the teacher immediately got some ideas to improve my Chinese rapidly given my profile and the target I set. Rating : 8.

The best places have the highest fees (over 200 rmb/hour to 150). The lowest I get was 90 rmb/hour.

After meeting all the schools, the 2 finalists were Mandarin House and Miracle Mandarin (if you negotiate, you could get similar rates, but at first, House is way higher).

I ended going with Miracle Mandarin, not because of the fees since they were aligned but at the end, I trusted more the program that was given to me. Since I am quite demanding as a student, I also threw ideas to tweak the teaching method to adjust to my needs (no writing during class, I could do that in my own, I don't "want/need" to write but I do it because it helps remembering characters, new vocabulary that is not in the program has to be written down by my teacher, then I'll study them on my own).

After one week of study, I was given around 500 new words which I read read (can't use all of them instantly but I'm already using lots of them during casual conversations). I could probably write half of them. I'll use the rest of the weekend to catch up.

Because I set off a high target, I also dedicated myself for it. I have 4x50 minutes of 1on1 which are divided between reading and talking.

I almost have no free time during a week, all my free time is spent into studying and after I'm done, I still watch a TV show (not a great one if you ask me, but easy enough to understand 空镜子). That rounds up my studying time over 10 hours/day.

1on1 lessons are very interactive, the more you invest yourself into it, the more you receive. I ask of lot of my teachers, I got a lot in return.

If I could give advices to people who would be in a similar spot that I was, I would say :

- set an objective and be firm on it. Don't let people (staff or teachers) talk you into something you are not comfortable with

- at first, when you will be only exchanging emails, ask to meet teachers when you'll set a rendez-vous date, so you won't waste time returning to the same place

- larger schools have more "options". After meeting the teacher at mandarin tree, I got scared that if I signed up in a small school, if the teacher wasn't to my liking, it would quite hard to switch. As for others options (cultural ones), while I wasn't looking for any, bigger schools offer some (writing, outside activities, etc..)

- bigger schools also have more students, so it's always good if you want to meet new people

- negotiate if you end up studying for a while.

[gato]

You might have noticed that there is a big market for Western restaurants in Shanghai nowadays -- quality Italian restaurants are more numerous than French ones. Don't know if you've considered working in the restaurant business here.

[French]

I haven't consider it yet. While I have some ideas popping in my head from time to time, I prefer not to pay too much attention to it since I might change my view on things after 3 months.

So I keep everything in a corner of my head and see how things are gonna play out.

[ChTTay]

Can you use paragraphs? I am interested in reading your review/insights but find the block of text really hard going. I mean would you mind "editing" the long post to add some...

:-)

[French]

Sure, I used my tablet to write the text since my computer is in "repair mode". Just thought that I used enough paragraphs grammar wise (idea/paragraph).

Edit : I'm sorry, using Tapatalk, I see all the paragraphs that I used but when going online with my browser, it's quite hard to read. It's one hell of a block.

I'll try to do it on my tablet, but it's not the easiest way to do it.

When I go to edit mode with my browser, I see all the paragraphs, it's very odd.

It should be fine now, I entered the edit mode and edited nothing, but I submitted the post, the former paragraphs that I used all "worked".

[James3]

Wow, excellent write up of the various schools. This should be very helpful for anyone who finds themself in your same shoes, of trying to pick a place to study in Shanghai. Good job! May your studying go well.

[French]

@James3 : that's my intent, if my experience and feedback could help anyone, then I would have accomplished my goal. When I was searching a school, I was desperate to read some reviews but there weren't many of them.

I didn't take into account others "features" like accommodation which could be handy to some people. The way I understood it and it's been confirmed by some people (insider info, some staff personal), if you can, arrange your own accommodation. It should be better.

Edit : I don't know why Tapatalk is "killing" all the paragraphs. Somewhat, it registers the code using paragraphs since when I enter the edit mode in my browser, I see them, but the app don't translate the code into paragraphs for browsers (it looks fine on Tapatalk).