Does 十以上 include 10?

[zhouhaochen]

Imrom mentioned in passing on http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46477-hsk-computer-based-exam-has-no-value/page-4

that he thinks remembering legally "number+以上" or "number+一下“ includes the "number" (i.e. 十一下 includes 十), but was not sure about it and gets mixed replies from the 老百姓 on the street.

 

As it happens I had a long discussion about this with a fellow learner last week and do not really know myself (I despise reading anything related to law).

 

Anyone know if there is a proper official definition of this? And if yes, where?

[Divato]

Yes, It does.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/78344.htm

以，在传统含义中，有包含端点。

[imron]

I think in general usage its definition is imprecise and as you mentioned you'll get variations depending on who you ask.

 

That doesn't work in a legal context however because for example if you have something like:

 

设立股份有限公司，应当有二人以上二百人以下为发起人，其中须有半数以上的发起人在中国境内有住所

 

Then do you mean a minimum of 2 or a minimum of 3, and a maximum of 200 or a maximum of 199.  Either way, you don't want to leave it up to the individual to choose and so the law explicitly defines it to provide preciseness for those interpreting the law.  That definition however is only within the legal context of that law and not necessarily a definite property of the language.

[Shelley]

Well interesting stuff. Just recently I have made a change to the way i describe our shop opening hours because of a similar (sort of) confusion. I used to say we are open Tue - Sat 10am to 6pm.

 

Discovered loads of customers thought we were only open on Tuesday and Saturdays. So now my description reads Open Everyday 10am to 6pm.except Mondays. .

 

And as we are open on Sunday I also add the times for this, Sunday 4:00pm to 4:30pm. this too confuses people, thinking we open till 4pm, I think because they don't read it properly. But it is less of a problem.

 

Is there a similar sort of thing in Chinese ie from  AA - FF definitely includes AA and FF and all in between that avoids confusion?

[anonymoose]

十以上 can be changed to 十及以上. Then it definitely includes 10.

[flow]

i'm pretty sure that it's *not* quite clear (outside of a legal text at least) whether or to include or exclude 10 in 十以上, because (for a number of years in the past at least) you could often find phrasings like 兩個或兩個以上 to the point where it gets obnoxious (why people in this case, which is pretty frequent, didn't resort to 多個 escapes my). then again, 一個以上 does sound a bit awkward.

[Basil]

I've seen it written as 十以上（含十)

[陳德聰]

设立股份有限公司，应当有二人以上二百人以下为发起人，其中须有半数以上的发起人在中国境内有住所

Imron is right here, it definitely is 2-200, not 3-199 in this context, but in an everyday usage kind of way, I don't use it to include the reference number.