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What level does speaking start to become encouraging?


Johnny20270

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Ok a vague title I admit but I think I need a new plan!

 

 

Following on from AdamD's post on "Easy ways to have Chinese conversations in China" below, I have a related comment / question.

 

I have been pottering around studying Chinese in London on and off for two years and only after three weeks in China, my enthusiasm has become rock bottom. Lowest its ever been. I seem to have lost all motivation. Now I have all day to study whereas befoire I work 10 hour days and then could do study after work.  Odd as I was expecting it to be the exact opposite! 

 

I find that I can't make even the simplest conversations in Chinese and even in a coffee shop I barely know what they are saying. I find it very hard to get started, as either after a few stock standard phrases we are either left looking at the floor or conversation just reverts to English. I have tried to find language partner but I am doubtful that its all that useful. Everyone I meet has fairly good English and this the natural flow is in English. I think its probably better to be more disciplined about it. i.e. stick strictly to one hour English and one hour Chinese, as otherwise its 99%  to 1% English / Chinese

 
I assume everyone has been through this so wondering at what level you start to experience some 'synergy' in your Chinese learning. 
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It may not be a satisfactory answer, but I would simply say, be patient and keep pushing until the breakthrough comes, because it will come eventually.

 

Talk to a wide variety of people: old/young, male/female, university educated/not university educated, white collar workers/blue collar workers... and see with which groups you have the greatest success.

 

Today I was walking around the north of the Dongcheng district; among the trendy shops on Gulou Dongdajie there was a Shandong mantou shop with a line at least 50 meters long out the door. I am a magnet to such things and I just stopped and gawked until someone said "laowai" and then I used that as my cue to start the chitchat: "Wow! Are the mantou here delicious? Are they expensive? What is the price? How long have you waited?" One couple in line was eager to give me the lowdown and they seemed disappointed when I took off too soon.

 

That is one thing I have to work on: I have the opposite problem--I never let it get to the point of running out of things to say and just staring at the floor. I need to start aiming to push the conversation until I get to that point!   :)

 

Johnny20270, good luck with it all and keep chipping away at it.

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

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Cheers Chris

 

yeah in English I am fine, I have zero issues making the conversation and I am not shy at all. I see you have HSK4, how did you find it earlier on your studies? 

 

I might start conversations, point and say 这是什么 at which point they yap away in Chinese and I go ahh ok, 好好 and then walk away not understanding a single thing they said :lol:

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Yeah, reaching that aha-moment in Chinese is all about perserverance - just as anything else worth doing really. Perhaps you can get some most used sentences down pat, like:

怎么样 ?

干嘛去?

吃饭了吗?

今天超级忙。

出去玩儿吧。

 

Get a Chinese colleague or friend to give you feedback on your pronunciation. Also remember that speaking Chinese is oftentimes about your body language as well, so try to look the part. I teach Chinese in Beijing, <Admin Note: gratuitous link to own website removed.  Please read our guidelines for commercial posters>

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Hi Johnny,

I think you need to learn at least 1000 words and some grammar syntax in order to understand the people.

The hardest part is to make your ear automatically split the syllables into words for you, but you can't achieve that without having good vocabulary basics.

I've been learning Chinese by myself and I have now an estimated HSK5 level, but it wasn't easy and it took a very long time as I wasn't in China when I began to learn.

Also, I strongly recommend that you use on a daily basis a SRS software like Anki or Skritter. I've made huge progress with Skritter, even the first month using it, it's fun and very effective.

Learning by writting (the Skritter way) is to my opinion the most efficient method to remember what you learn: not only you learn when studying, but you'll be actually able to read everywhere you go.

You can also try having basic conversations on QQ or Wechat groups, using Google Translate for reading if needed but never to write, so you can practice what you've learnt.

Oral comprehension and speaking skills will come naturally with your ability to understand vocabulary even written.

 

Good luck!

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Tysond's advice is all good, but I don't agree with AdamD that you should enforce a "speak only Chinese" rule when your level is insufficient (and you may find people becoming impatient with you if you try to).

 

If you're not at the level to have a proper conversation yet, a language exchange can still be valuable, if you find someone who's helpful and a natural teacher. Half English/half Chinese should still be the rule, but within the "Chinese" half you would be concentrating on improving your Chinese, rather than on speaking 100% Chinese. So perhaps your exchange partner could help you (using English as much as necessary) with some tricky grammar point you've come across lately, or with your pronunciation, or with helping you construct and act out some role-plays for a specific situation.

 

Other than that, just study as much as possible and keep at it! Take every opportunity to study - like Tysond says, any time you encounter a new object and there are people around to ask is an opportunity to learn a new word. When you see an unfamiliar word or character on a signpost, look it up. When you hear a new word in conversation, look it up. When you want to say something and don't know how, look it up, use it, and only after using it and being understood commit it to memory.

 

If it's listening comprehension that you feel is your weakest point (I know I certainly felt the same way when I first got to China), try to get as much listening practice as possible. Some suggestions (very simple kids' programmes, all of which can be found on Chinese video sites such as youku, letv, iqiyi, tudou etc.): 粉红猪小妹 (Peppa Pig), 爱探险的朵拉 (Dora the Explorer, English becomes Chinese, Spanish becomes English), and 巧虎 (some tiger character, I think originally Japanese).

 

At a marginally higher level of difficulty, but also more entertaining, are 蜡笔小新 (Crayon Shin Chan) and 樱桃小丸子 (Chibi Maruko Chan). Either of these you can watch and basically understand the story even if you're only picking up the odd few words or sentences.

 

Finally, if you're not taking classes, start taking classes.

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I don't agree with AdamD that you should enforce a "speak only Chinese" rule when your level is insufficient (and you may find people becoming impatient with you if you try to).

 

That's a fair point. I had the impression that Johnny20270's knowledge is good (HSK 3?) but he's having trouble applying it. That's where I am too, and dropping back into English when I'm in China only hinders my progress.

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I think the problem with language exchange is that you shouldn't see it as just conversation exchange, but you should put a focus on learning the language rather than just using it. Most people won't be good natural teachers, so that puts the onus on you to ask questions and basically direct how you want the exchange to be. If you are stuck for ideas, then get a text book and work through the text book with your partner.

 

If you just treat language exchange as friends meeting up for a casual chat, then the language will inevitably revert to whichever is easiest - if your Chinese is poor, then that will be English. I know, because I had the same issue when I started out learning Chinese, though I was in the UK at the time. The way I saw it though, was that if I use English to ask questions about Chinese (which I had to do at that time as my Chinese wasn't good enough to ask in Chinese), then I get to improve my Chinese, whilst my partner is also getting the opportunity to converse in English.

 

When your Chinese gets good enough, eventually Chinese becomes the stronger language of the pair of you. At that time, conversation will naturally revert to Chinese. You may find then that your partners don't even care about speaking English any more - they are happy just to speak in Chinese only.

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hi all, good replys thanks 

 

AdamD: my knowledge I would say its an upper beginner. I know about ~1200 words but to be honest I can barely use them in any meaningful context. I have more text book knowledge than actual dynamic knowledge. In other words, its very hard for me to say things 'on the run' or in everyday conversation. I think this is the reason I find Chinespod lessons frustratingly difficult but grammar books some what understandable as they tend to be factual in nature. I have reread grammar books to a fair degree now, but never applied it so maybe this is where I am going wrong. 

 

So its not at any level to form a meaningful conversation. I think there probably is benefit in a language partner, but I seem to be finding people who are actually not that interested, have a few mental issues or just looking for a companion rather than a strict language exchange. Anonymoose made a good point of avoiding the trap of using language exchange as casual chit chat. I have the same experience. In some ways you need to be regimented and not really friends. I met a young lady and her English is pretty bad. Actually it was good as she naturally wants to revert to chinese, but lives to far away so bit tedious to travel. Although anonymoose did say "When your Chinese gets good enough, eventually Chinese becomes the stronger language of the pair of you". I don;t that will happen for a long time :)

 

Demonic_Duck: will have a look at the websites. I have been struggling to find more simpler material, cheers for that. Also yes, my mistake has been learning words but no clue how to use them

 

tysond: I like that idea of being more specific as you suggest! ... - 这是什么东西? 一种水果?etc

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I think it's a matter of perspective. I become encouraged every time I make an utterance and get what I want. I remember ordering something at a restaurant in Chinese and having them refuse to accept that I couldn't say anything more. If you wish to remain motivated it's essential to focus on the progress you've made rather than the progress you need to make. Even after years of study there's probably going to be times when somebody is talking and you don't understand what they're saying.

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My contribution, and largely based on this:

"I might start conversations, point and say 这是什么 at which point they yap away in Chinese and I go ahh ok, 好好 and then walk away not understanding a single thing they said"

 

It sounds like you're failing to manage the situation. You're expecting to not understand much - so prepare some 'sorry, can you speak slower?' and 'could you explain it more simply?' responses. Or just start off with 'I'm sorry, my Chinese isn't very good, but I'd like to ask...' I think generally people respond well to this kind of request - don't pull it on anyone with a queue of customers to get through, but when someone seems friendly and not too busy, try it out. 

 

You may also be suffering from the towel effect - if you can walk up and confidently deliver a question in fluent and well-pronounced Chinese, your interlocutor may well assume that you can handle a rapid-fire response. Maybe signal that isn't the case by slowing down yourself and making it look like you're making a huge effort. 

 

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Roddy makes a good point. I spent five years in Japan slogging through Japanese and while I am pleased with my progress and ultimate ability in that language, I feel that my Mandarin is much more natural--I feel I am more able to automatically understand and respond in Mandarin than I can in Japanese.

 

One strategy that I have learned to use well in China is to manage the conversation--I won't hesitate to tell people to "please slow down" or "please repeat what you have said". I feel my strategic competence (strategies to use to repair breakdowns in understanding and communication) in Mandarin is not bad.

 

This is key and this is something I never really did in Japan--I would simply slog through and try to be all Japanesey-polite and just nod and then walk away not understanding. I like it that we "don't have to be so polite in China" (whatever that means).

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

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@Roddy, I'd never heard of the towel effect, but I'm not surprised that it's a HHGTG thing.

 

This sort of management thing is really important for beginners. For those that are lazy, I know that Benny Lewis has a fair number of words and phrases that can be used to help manage the flow of conversation. There are probably other lists out there, but I know he's got one that's fairly comprehensive in his book.

 

This reminds me that I need to make sure that I've got those down.

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Don't dwell on your failures; embrace your successes. You must learn to pat yourself on the back. That's the only way to avoid discouragement. As you progress, positive reinforcement will arrive in huge waves from every direction and it will feel very good, I assure you.

 

 

 

I think this is probably a critical factor. It is very easy to just go "sod it I'll just speak English and just point".

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Can't tell you how many times I've had to say 请再说一遍,但是慢一点。

 

 

As a result of spending a summer with some folks from Spain, Germany, and the Netherlands I was actually "trained" in this manner to slow down and simplify my speech as I was the only native speaker in our group.  I also learned to repeat important ideas in two different ways - to say the same thing in another way (like this sentence).

This habit has actually stuck with me for life and is very useful when speaking to non-native speakers.  But I had to learn to do it.  So will your new Chinese friends.

 

I know that Benny Lewis has a fair number of words and phrases that can be used to help manage the flow of conversation

 

 

 

I do not know what Benny has today, but when I bought his e-book around 2 years ago, it had "conversation connectors".  I did not find them valuable.  

 

First of all, it was just an excel file that someone else had translated, no examples, no explanation, you had to match it up with the corresponding English excel file by yourself (compare with say Glossika's videos where he explains sentence by sentence).  Hard to use... really felt thrown together with minimal care.  

 

Second, even if you did figure out how to use it, you are now spending valuable time memorizing things like "on the other hand" and "well, in a manner of speaking" and "it's not so much this, as much as it is...".  A small number of such constructs is good, but they add shades of meaning and often just pad out the sentence giving you time to think.   If you need to do this the really easy way to do this is "neige neige negie...." or repeat the topic of the question and add "de hua" when answering to buy some time.

 

Third, I realized the purpose of them was to give the impression of fluency while not actually having it, and to fill up more time in the exchange speaking rather than listening.  This is not in line with my goals.  I felt it was a better use of time to learn verbs and nouns, for example, so you have more things to talk about.  

 

I learn these phrases on a frequency basis - it's they are commonly used and I hear/see them in context then I learn them.  At higher levels of course they become more useful.

 

However, It is worthwhile learning set phrases to control the conversation by asking for clarifications, repeats, slow-downs.  One that I don't think anyone mentioned is to ask "你的意思是。。。。“ then repeat (or rephrase) what you understand the meaning to be.  Very useful for clarifying your "guessed" meaning.

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