Placement of 想 in this sentence

[CodyFarmer]

Hi all,

I am working my way through Schaum's Outline of Chinese Grammar and have come across a few different things that are prompting questions. Unless told otherwise, I will likely post my questions in separate threads over time (as they arise).

First one is here and involves the placement of 想。I realize it might be somewhat trivial here but any clarity would help.

Original sentence:

弟弟想明天到海边去玩。

translated as "Younger brother is going to the ocean tomorrow to have fun."

I would have thought this to be more appropriate:

弟弟明天想到海边去玩。

Am I mistaken or is it irrelevant perhaps?

Thank you in advance for any assistance!

[Tiana]

The original sentence should be better. To see that, you may like to examine the way I divide the sentences into 2 parts below, and you may see one sentence appearing more logical than the other:

 

a) 第第想  //  明天到海边去玩。(Brother thinks // tomorrow.... )

b) 第第明天想  // 到海边去玩。(Brother tomorrow thinks // ...)

[889]

昨天他想今天去可是今天他想明天去。

[dabazuo]

Young Brother should be tanslated into “弟弟”.

第 is used in 第一、第二、第几个

[LiMo]

I have wondered about this too. It makes more sense, to me, to put the time phrase after the verb, he is intending to go tomorrow. It feels like if you put the time phrase in front of the verb that he intends to intend to go tomorrow. A bit confusing. Considering that the latter interpretation would be very strange I suppose common sense prevails and you assume the most normal interpretation. Nevertheless I'd like to know what other people think about this.

[CodyFarmer]

Corrected, thank you.

[Tiana]

Thanks for pointing out the typo but I'll just leave it as it is, otherwise post #4 would look a bit lonely, without a place to refer to.

Anyway, blame the post above mine for the typo   , where I copied it from.

[Tiana]

The general rule I can deduce relating to the position of the time-word is that where there is more than one action/ verb in the sentence, the time-word should precede the action/ verb it is the time frame of. Accordingly:

 

a) 弟弟想  //  明天到海边去玩。

This is good, because 明天 is the time frame for 到海边去玩.

 

b) 弟弟明天想  // 到海边去玩。

This is not good, because 明天 precedes 想, but is NOT the time frame for 想.

 

(@ CodyFarmer: I think the issue in this thread is really about the placement of the time-word 明天, and not 想 as you seem to have suggested by the title.)

[anonymoose]

@Tiana

 

That would make the most sense. However, in reality, Chinese is not always used that way. Take a look at this, for example.

 

If we remove the 海边, then there are many more examples.

 

I'm not sure if this use would be considered normal, sloppy or incorrect, but nevertheless, it is seen not infrequently.

[Tiana]

anonymoose, thanks for pointing that out.

 

As I said in my post, it's only a "general rule I can deduce" and so exceptions are to be expected.

The examples in your search are not even exceptions, they look very everyday and normal to me.  But one thing I've noticed is that 明天 in those examples seems to be quite an important element in the sentence in the context it is used. So, there may be another rule at play, such as an important element in the sentence can be fronted due to its prominence, such as for emphasis or topicality?

That is to say, to sentences without a special context or emphasis on the time-words (such as the one cited by 889 in post #3: 昨天他想今天去可是今天他想明天去), the rule I deduced should apply. What do you/ others think? 

[NotChinese]

I fully agree that the issue is about the placement of 明天。

 

If it's at the start of the sentence, it makes it into a time-location.

明天弟弟想。。。

弟弟明天想。。。

These are both time-locations. 明天 is at the start of everything, before any verb has been thrown in.

So in these examples, the sentence is putting the brother in that specific time-location, and then tells us what he's wanting.

"Tomorrow, my brother will want..."

 

Whereas the correct version is

弟弟想明天。。。

Because it turns 明天 into the the object of the brother's wants.

My brother wants 'tomorrow go to beach'.

 

 

So, to conclude:

 

弟弟想明天到海边其玩。

Brother wants - tomorrow go to beach.

Brother is in the present, thinking about what he wants to do tomorrow.

 

弟弟明天想到海边去玩。

Brother tomorrow - wants to go to beach.

Brother is in the future and is having his desires projected somehow.

Actually I think the grammar is wrong anyway.

Maybe you could say 弟弟明天会想到海边去玩。Note I added 会 to complete the future-tense nature of the sentence.

 

So yeah. It's all about the time-location.