How competitive is a Chinese university graduate internationally?

[bientai]

Hi.

 

I am a prospective EU student and I was accepted to a handful of universities in Europe. Some of them have a very long history and rank consistenly among top 100 universities in the world. However, I decided to decline all of these offers and opted to go to study at Fudan University instead. 

 

I do not regret my decision, yet I keep wondering how competitive are the universities in Mainland China? I am interested in Asia and would like to master Mandarin language. However, I would also like to keep my chances open for further studies on a doctoral level in Europe, Australia or perhaps some more renown university in Asia. So, I was wondering how would a Chinese university look on one's resume and how would you rate its academic preparation both for professional career and further studies?

 

Cheers!

[ZhangKaiRong]

Chinese undergrad and grad programs are different from their Western counterpants, simply because the concept of what learning is very different. In China, everything is about good exam results, and to achieve that you have to memorize a lot. In the Western part of the world, university is less rigid, it makes more room for creativity and useful practical skills. I have some corporate world experience working closely with Chinese fresh grads (Tsinghua, ShangJiao), and they're working less efficiently than an average Western European and they're much harder to cooperate with, not because the fundamental cultural differences (that can be handled if you have a good understanding of China) but due to the fact that they lack skills considered to be vital in an international business environment. They're less creative and have more difficulties with complex problem solving. But they also have some good points, for example they never complain about the workload and they also don't mind working overtime. This is just my experience, from a Western corporate point of view, and I know that the local Chinese market has different requirements from a graduate. But based on what I've seen from these Chinese fresh grad colleagues, they would have very little chance to be hired at the firm they're currently working for in Europe. Of course, it can be argued how much of these are a result of the Chinese non-academic education...

 

I would not worry too much about getting hired to a decent place. When I was a fresh grad, I also very anxious about the future, but let's be honest, degrees are not too important even at elite firms. If you can persuade HR guys that you can bring something new and valuable to the company. Don't rely just on your CV, do some networking, make new friends, and opportunities will arise, even if you're from a not too shiny university.

[bientai]

Not too encouraging thoughts. I haved heard many times before that an average Asian (not just Chinese) student doesn't have the creativity or flexibility of his/her Western counterpart, but I would have not expected such a critical view on so called Chinese elite university graduates. Of course, extraordinary individual skills will buy you a ticket to any company or university, but few of us can count on just that. In the West, having a good diploma from a well-known university can be a ticket. Unfortunately or fortunately, an Oxford or LSE diploma in your pocket, you will have much better chances in both professional and academic world than with a degree from some obscure university. Pity that by the sound of it the same doesn't apply to Peking U. or TsingHua or Fudan, if you have put a lot of effort in your life to get there and graduate those institutions.

 

Any more insight?

[Kobo-Daishi]

 

I am a prospective EU student and I was accepted to a handful of universities in Europe. Some of them have a very long history and rank consistenly among top 100 universities in the world. However, I decided to decline all of these offers and opted to go to study at Fudan University instead.

 

 

 

I remember reading a while back that China had overtaken the Japanese for the most number of universities in the top 100 Asian university rankings recently put out.

 

https://www.google.com/search?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=china+university+ranking

 

I did a Google news search, but couldn't find that specific article. But here's a representative article from the Wall Street Journal.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2015/06/11/university-of-tokyo-chosen-best-in-asia-but-china-rises-on-top-100-list/

University of Tokyo Chosen Best in Asia, but China Rises on Top 100 List

 

https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/asia-university-rankings-2015-results-announced Asia University Rankings 2015 results announced (the site that came out with the ranking)

 

https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2015/regional-ranking Their Top 100 Asian university ranking.

 

https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2015/world-ranking/#/ Their overall World Ranking.

 

Interestingly, Caltech is no. 1 while Harvard is second. Beida (or Peking University) is ranked 48 and Tsinghua U. is 49.

 

That's higher than Brown University, Boston University, Pennsylvania State University, Kyoto University, Ohio State University, USC (the University of Southern California not University of South Carolina), Michigan State University, Monash University, Notre Dame), and Vanderbilt University. All quite well-known universities. At least in the US.

 

What truly amazed me is that USC is ranked #75. So low.

 

The ironic thing is that it, USC, is the American university to have the most Chinese nationals attending of all US institutions of higher education. Go figure.

 

In years past, USC has ranked pretty high on such rankings.

 

Kobo.

 

Edit: Oh, and Fudan is ranked #193.

 

Edit: And Emma Watson graduated from Brown.  

 

Edit: Though USC has been consistently ranked as a top "party school".   ;-)

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=usc+top+party+school&gws_rd=ssl

 

According to Playboy at least.   ;-0

 

I thought she was the #1 the last I saw. Unfortunately, couldn't find that article.

 

Edit: India didn't even crack the top 200!?!?!?! Huge shocker here!

[thatgongguy]

bientai,

The truth is for many large organizations your CV is processed by an algorithm in software, all it looks for is if you meet the education qualifications. Then the algorithm scores the CV based on Education Level + Experience Level = Score Level.  So if you are going to the business world where you go is not as important as getting your degree and finding some real world experience.  China has some great schools, you will be prepared, just remember to supplement with real work.

 

Flexibility and creativity have nothing to do with your University choice, those are personal lifestyle and work style choices. 

 

You can throw all this out the window if your looking to work for a University.  There you will be judged based on the rank of where you went.  Otherwise it is more important to get the degree and supplement with experience.

 

 

 

 

[gato]

Admission standards are much lower for foreign students than for local students at Chinese elite universities. Employers would take that into account.

[Angelina]

Can you tell us more about your program? 

 

I am attending an international workshop where I am the only local (from the host uni) international grad student at this moment, so too busy to talk now, but it's relevant to your questions sort of busy. I don't regret my decision, but it has been an uphill battle and you should be VERY careful! 

[ZhangKaiRong]

@bientai

 

I don't know whether you have bumped into these threads already, but they might give you a good insight on academic prospects with Chinese educational background.

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36466-graduate-school-in-china-%E2%80%93-a-history-major%E2%80%99s-perspective/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/48499-academic-career-in-chinese/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/48491-any-feedback-about-getting-a-masters-degree-taught-in-chinese/

 

My comment above might be critical, but if you're aiming for international prospects, then you should know what the current situation is. A C9 (the 9 best unis in China, namely Tsinghua, BeiDa, Fudan, ShangJiao, XianJiao, HIT, NanDa, USTC, ZheDa) degree might be a good "ticket" to good firms in China, however this Chinese Ivy League is absolutely on a lower level compared to the US Ivy League when it comes to international recognition or future opportunities. If you're interested in China or other Asian cultures or languages, that's good. By learning these languages/cultures, you will extend your knowledge and your view on things will be more complex compared to somebody who doesn't even have a clue on differences between Asian nations. You should consider this interest as a hobby, but don't rely on this Chinese/Asian knowledge as your main professional skills, because therefore you seriously limit your career options in the corporate world. Of course, it also depends on your ambition: if you want to be in the top management of a Fortune500 company or any investment bank/consulting firm in Western Europe/US, then you need more than just the "I-have-a-good-understanding-of-Asia" sentence. But when the opportunity comes, you can play your Asia card as well, profiting from your invested time learning about the region.

 

But don't forget: corporates are just a slice of potential career paths. You can use your knowledge in the governmental sector, academia, NGOs, etc. I don't really have a good insight on these sectors, but I guess there should be more positions where you can apply this kind of knowledge.

[bientai]

In my case, personally, I am more interested in continuing in academia. Would Fudan master's degree be competitive enough for relevant doctoral programmes in higher end EU and Aussie universities? Any insight?

[roddy]

I think your prospects are pretty much always going to be better if you study back home, do a gap year at a Chinese uni, spend your summers interning or something in China, and do any dissertations or projects with a focus on China.

 

Edit - ask them. Contact a few universities or professors and ask them what they think. I'll wager the greater focus on independent research and academic rigour you'd get outside of China count for a lot. Also, you want to continue in academia NOW. Three or four years is a long time. 

[Angelina]

an Oxford or LSE diploma in your pocket, you will have much better chances in both professional and academic world than with a degree from some obscure university

 

It's not the Oxford/LSE diploma, it's the education you get there. 

 

I am still working towards my degree from a C9 Chinese uni. There are many things that need to change. 

 

ZhangKaiRong is right, people work in silos. I often get lonely (luckily for me, chinese-forums.com is alway there to vent out), lack motivation, it's just boring sometimes. Basically, people are reading and writing papers all the time. I miss groundbreaking ideas and debates. Everything seems pretty lackluster. 

 

The good part is that things are changing for the better, there are many visiting scholars who are trying to encourage more lively discussions. Some of my friends are already participating in international conferences and coming back home with more ideas. 

 

What I definitely recommend is to check the people at your program before you decide. What kind of things are they interested in? It's more about the people than about the name of the university. Certain European and Australian universities have many creative people working or studying there. I am not sure if the environment here in China is particularly motivating. It's the people that make the place. 

 

Not to mention academic freedom and integrity. 

 

I am also interested in doing a PhD after my master's. Can't tell you if having opted out for China has hurt or improved my changes because I haven't tried to apply for PhD studies yet. I don't care that much how people would react to seeing the name of a Chinese university on my resume as much as I care about learning new skills and producing original research. Both academia and the business world would only look at your skills, not how well the degree granting institution did on certain ranking. My university is weak when it comes to the humanities, but my subfield is doing fine. 

 

My friend is a PhD student at Fudan. It all depends on the specific program. I would be suspicious when it comes to those programs created for international students. If your program is taught in Mandarin though, you should make sure your Mandarin is good enough. I am personally having serious problems when it comes to writing papers. You have to make sure you won't have any problems writing. If there is one piece of advice I can give you, it's this, focus on your writing skills.  

 

Another serious problem in China is the pollution. It can affect your performance. 

 

If you are interested in the 中文系, we can ask my friend. 

[Angelina]

Also, don't expect much in terms of facilities and services, you might not get the comfort you are used to.

I can't tell you about your academic prospects because you did not say anything about your specific program. The most important question is whether or not it is a regular program or a special program created to attract international students.

[shuoshuo]

Fudan is a good university, one of the best in China. I know someone who got a full scholarship to do their Masters a top 10 uni in the US, and they did their bachelors here in China at a not-so popular university. That speaks for itself. Just make sure your extracurricular activities and grades are quite impressive.

[davoosh]

I think it depends on your goals, I can only speak as regards continuing in academia and studying at a Chinese university, I think a big issue as others have said is the style of learning and teaching.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I was going to go down this route myself and did a year at a uni in Dalian, however I soon realised I wasn't really getting the full 'university experience' in things such as critical thinking, looking at things from different perspectives, thoroughly analysing issues and forming educated opinions. I then decided to do my BA in the UK, and I honestly think that if I had done my whole degree in China, I would not have come out with such a rounded and critical knowledge on certain subjects (but my Chinese would have been amazing, ha). As Angelina has said, if you are interested in academia and learning as a whole, it's not just the diploma, it's the experience and knowledge you gain.

 

To continue onto doctoral study in the UK at least (in humanities) usually requires you submit your own research proposal, showing awareness of the latest trends and where research in that field is going, different aspects surrounding it, etc. and I do not feel China could have prepared me for this. Obviously if you do a BA in a Western country and do an MA/PhD in China it's a bit different. Of course, if you intend to stay strictly within Chinese studies, it might not be so bad

[bientai]

I do not doubt that Fudan is a great university. However, what I am concerned about are aspects that davoosh already mentioned - critical thinking, creativity, etc - and these are something Chinese universities are often said to be lacking. I am also worried about 'tiny' details that I have noticed while communicating with Chinese university officials as well as casually browsing through university websites, curricula and so forth. For example, it is beyond me, how world-class universities can have websites where practically every page is written in broken English. I am not talking about some typos here or there, which shouldn't be there either, but major grammatical errors and spelling mistake throughout the text. Not only that, but there must be something wrong if a professor who claims to be an expert in academic and research writing has a whole dictionary in his head but at the same time can't put all these words together to form a coherent sentence. A TsingHua diploma in the pocket and on your resume looks surely nice, but what is it all actually worth? 

 

I tend to get overanalytical about things, but I am just not used to this kind of unprofessionalism at an academc level. Maybe someone can lift my mood and say that their Western university wasn't half as good as the one they attended in China?

[Flickserve]

Since Chinese is the de facto language in China, I would expect the websites to be rather better written in Chinese. So do check out the written Chinese version.

I wouldn't say a western university is a bed of roses. There are some very mediocre lecturers around!

I don't know much about Universities in China but my friend graduated from Fudan about 20 years ago and subsequently did a MBA at Wharton.

To be honest, if I was spending the time and money on undergrad degree, I would do one in my home country and do a gap year in China. During that gap year of learning the language, I would do the research on different universities, talk to people and visit them. Then later on in life visit China on exchanges as part of a Masters programme.

However, if you are the person that likes to accept risk and being potentially the trailblazer, then follow China.

[shuoshuo]

I would never come to China to do an English-taught degree. In fact I need to really figure out why people do that, esp. a major that isn't related to China or its culture. Many English-taught degrees are nothing compared to their Chinese-taught equivalent.

[Chris Two Times]

I am in this exact boat. After completing a BA and two MAs in my home country (the US), I am considering beginning a PhD in China in one particular program in order to work with a particular professor (oh! alliteration!).

 

That last quote from Flickserve really resounded with me: accept risk(s) and/or be a trailblazer.

 

I feel like I am at a crossroads in my life: do I really want to go long with China and do I really want to steep myself in China-specific research? Naturally, the answer to that question will be key to a serious consideration of doing a PhD at this Chinese university. Hmm...

 

The plot thickens (sickens?)(quickens?).

 

Warm regards,

Chris Two Times

[christineh]

I'm in an English-taught program myself (though shuoshuo is right not to recommend them, but I was misinformed, despite diligent research, about the program and didn't have other options).  

 

Many of my frustrations are touched on by other posters. I don't feel like the professors engage the students, there's not a lot of critical or creative thinking, and questionable academic integrity and biases, even from non-students. For some (but definitely not all) of my professors, I think many of the complaints were more of a language-barrier issue, though,(Ie, it's hard to debate a topic when half of the participants aren't fluent in the same languages.)

 

Just like a Western university, there will be good professors and bad professors. As a foreigner though, you're likely to stand out. If you want to form relationships, then this is actually a really good thing and can make up for some of the drawbacks of Chinese education. You're also likely to already have the "creative problem solving skills" that Chinese graduates lack, and the Chinese graduate school may help fill in some of the gaps of Western education (though this does not seem to be the case for me). 

 

At the very least, living in China will look nice on a resume, and is something to talk about in the interview, as a unique perspective to bring to a company. And that's actually true. So many Chinese students go to the west for an education and there's a lot of study in China on Western practices, but there's a lot less flowing in the other direction. That's unfair to China, as a growing superpower, but also really shortsighted on the part of Westerners. Developing countries and less Americanized/Western countries see China as a fantastic place to get an education. Maybe I'm getting a biased view, in a smaller city, but I'm one of only 3 native English speakers at my school, this year, out of maybe 60 international students. 

 

Plus, for graduate programs, you have to keep in mind that the thesis is a huge part of it--and the thesis will largely be what you make it. If you want to do a topic involving China, than, obviously there's no better place for it. (One advantage to an English program: writing for an English/Western Audience about Chinese data is a more unique start than many thesis topics, though I don't know that I'll find an interested publisher, since I lack the Western connections and prestige)

[Sofia80]