Should we translate English phrases with Mandarin phrases?

[Angelina]

Obviously, when we start learning Mandarin, it usually goes like this:

 

－How do you say 'a computer'？

 

-'电脑'。

 

 

However, there has to be a point in our learning process when we stop translating English phrases into Mandarin and we start to think in Mandarin. Unless this happens, we will still speak unnatural, English-flavored Mandarin. No matter how many characters we have memorized or how many years we have been studying. 

 

Here is an example with 'in front of' an '前面'. If you ask how do you say 'in front of' in Mandarin, the usual answer would be '前面‘.

 

Well, not exactly. 

 

 

 

[Yorin]

Of course learning the grammar of a language is as important as learning the vocabulary.

[Shelley]

a) is in front of the car

b) is beside the car

c) is on top of the car

d) is on the car

 

All these are different and i wouldn't try to translate them all with "in front".

 

I am not sure i understand the question.

[Angelina]

My question is: Is it a good approach to learn the language by trying to translate what we want to say in English by finding the Mandarin equivalent?

 

I can understand that this is the only approach absolute beginners can think of, but it seems like the wrong direction to go. Let's say someone has learned that 'in front of' is '前面' in Mandarin. Then, when they see that it has been used to express 'on top of', they become puzzled and conclude that Mandarin is a difficult language to master. Then, they do more flashcards and still speak unnatural Mandarin. We need to use flashcards and memorize characters, but I have the feeling that some people are making it more difficult for themselves. 

 

What alternative methods have people who speak perfect Mandarin been using? 

[Shelley]

I don't speak perfect mandarin but, I did find myself thinking I spend all my time learning words and characters, learning grammar. i have been doing this for a long time and have not made any headway with speaking mandarin.

 

I have tried lots of different things and they didn't help much.

 

Recently I have found TPRS, Here is some information http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/46693-any-experience-with-tprs/

 

It suits me and I feel it really is going to help me.

 

It concentrates on speaking and listening comprehension.

[roddy]

"Is it a good approach to learn the language by trying to translate what we want to say in English by finding the Mandarin equivalent?"

The better approach is probably to ask 'what would a Chinese person say in this situation'. If (to use some exaggerated examples) you want to get past someone on the bus and you translate "Excuse me, might I just squeeze past for a moment", you're on the wrong track. 

[hedwards]

I'm with Roddy here.

 

I'll do a fair amount of translating from Chinese into English. I'll translate more or less as literally as possible so that I know more or less what's going on. I recommend that people don't start the practice of translating from their native tongue to Chinese in the first place, or if they do stop immediately. The way that you start to think in the target language is that you use their grammatical structures and play with them. You're not always going to know the rule and you can and should experiment a bit to figure out what is and isn't comprehensible. Grammar books are a decent place to start, but there's no set of rules about what exactly is and isn't grammatical. Some things are generally agreed upon, and others are less strictly adhered to.

 

The nice thing about those literal translations is that they allow you to get a sense of how the sentences work. You can practice with the grammar before you necessarily know enough Chinese words to communicate. In fact, I'm not really sure why the practice isn't more common. I can't recall ever having read anybody else doing that. But, it does help immensely with the process of learning to think in their grammar.

[Shelley]

Oh I see what you are getting at, roddy's example made it clear.

 

I think that to start with the simple things you say when you are first learning can be directly translated. Then I think what happens is you learn grammar and sentence patterns and then plug in your vocabulary.

Then you start listening and learning from native speakers and find the colloquial way to say things.

[Zeppa]

This is the same with all languages: if you want to produce natural language, you should not translate into it word-for-word or phrase-for-phrase in your head. In fact, if you find an English-sounding creation in your head, it will be useful to try to depart from it. It takes practice to find the natural Chinese expressions, but you still have a better chance of speaking/writing natural Chinese if you avoid word-for-word translation.

[Angelina]

 

 

i have been doing this for a long time and have not made any headway with speaking mandarin.

 

Exactly. I don't want be like this. 

 

I am not sure about TPRS, their three-step thing looks suspicious. Why do you need to buy a product? It's like diet pills, you always have the feeling that the latest one will be the one that will actually work. Until you waste 10 years trying.

 

That's the problem with grammar, we don't always know what is grammatical and what is not. The rules governing Mandarin are different. It's not French with tones. 

 

I guess: what would a Chinese person say is the best idea. 

[Shelley]

I am not aware of any product you have to buy, or three step thing. Did you watch the little video?

I admit my experience is limited, but I have really found it works.

 

I understand and remember what I have learnt. I can use what i have learnt and it is not hard work, in fact it is suppose to be fun.

 

I am no expert, if you have any questions i am sure Eszter would be happy to answer them.

 

 

[Angelina]

I saw that there is something called TPRS and something else called TPR Storytelling. Both of them are trademarks. At first glance it looks suspicious. Also, the method was supposed to be used for Spanish and French and then extended for Mandarin with slight changes because of the tones. I love storytelling and narration in general, but I am not interested in this particular idea. 

 

Of course, you should find the thing that works for you. I think it is sad when people start learning Mandarin by mentally translating English thoughts into Mandarin and then wrongly assume that Mandarin is a difficult language because it does not make sense. Instead of looking for the right podcast, flashcards or whatever magic potion they are after, it is much better to understand that you should try to think in Mandarin. 

[Shelley]

As you say. you should find the things that work for you. The most common answer i see to people saying they are finding their speaking falling behind everything else is to talk to as many people as possible, if you want to learn to speak then speak

[Demonic_Duck]

(a), (b) and (d) make sense to me, but I've never seen/heard “前面” used to express “on top of” before. Is this a common usage?

 

Edit: as for the subject of the thread, I agree that literal translation only takes you so far. For beginners, though, mapping Chinese contexts to English concepts is certainly useful, as long as the learner is able to accept that sometimes the mapping isn't one-to-one.

 

Translation (in the broad sense that also incorporates interpretation) is also a useful skill, though, and it's a separate skill from being able to speak/write/understand the language well. Students who only map words to other Chinese words, and not to words in their L1, inevitably find from time to time that they perfectly understand a concept in Chinese, but can't think of an acceptable way to express it in their L1. This isn't necessarily a problem, but depending on what you want to use the language for, it can also be an important skill to learn.

[Angelina]

So you think it depends on what people want to be using the language for? There are people who might find it useful to know the meaning of a certain item in English as well. Interesting observation. I thought that this can only cause L1 interference. 

 

About 'on top of', well, I am not a native speaker, I am not sure so I only guess it is a possible but not a common interpretation. 

[Silent]

 

(a), (b) and (d) make sense to me, but I've never seen/heard “前面” used to express “on top of” before. Is this a common usage?

To me the example is confusing too, but I think the cat on top is still at the front end of the roof so that may explain the front.

 

 

That's the problem with grammar, we don't always know what is grammatical and what is not. The rules governing Mandarin are different. It's not French with tones.

Every language is different, languages may have similarities but also differences though for closely related languages the differences may be minor.

 

IMHO there's only one way to learn to use  a language in a natural way and that's active use with (preferably) natives and native materials. Correct direct translations are only possible for the simplest words and sentences e.g. even for something fairly simple as ' yes' there are dozens of translations possible in Chinese that may or may not be suitable depending on the context. Beyond those simplest words and sentences translating tends to get swamped by multiple interpretations and cultural aspects. Basicly translating is a death trap.

 

So, to answer your question, no you should not translate, you should build new phrases directly in the target language that express what you want to say. Sure as an absolute beginner this is not possible and then sentences may be a good alternative over word by word translations but it will remain artificial as 'real and true' translation is simply impossible.

 

In communications training they usually have an exercise where one tells a phrase to another one and the retells it to another one etc till it has been through the entire group and what comes out at the end is usually quite different from the start phrase. Translating is pretty much the same. You have idea's and images in your mind that you want to convey, You translate them in a story that never captures exactly what you have in mind, it's always an approximation. If then you translate it (imperfectly) to another language you are likely to move further away from what you intended to say. Putting it directly in the target language removes a source of errors.

[Angelina]

 
 

You should print this out and give it to all people struggling with language learning!

[tooironic]

Angelina, are you talking about translating from English to Chinese in the process of study, or as a mental process when you use your second language? Because they are two very different things. I wouldn't recommend anyone think entirely in their first language when trying to communicate in their second - though of course a bit of mental translation is normal and expected, as long as you haven't acquired a habit where all you is translate word-for-word from your L1 to your L2. This is a bad habit, and one that can take a while to get out of.

 

On the other hand, if you're talking about translating from English to Chinese as a study method, then I agree with those who argue that it's best to put yourself in the shoes of a native speaker and imagine what they would say in a given situation.... and then if you still have no idea, ask. I don't think asking a direct translation question is always a bad idea, as long as the person you are asking is skilled enough in both languages to give an accurate answer. And the answers you receive can help you better understand the differences between the languages, which should in turn help build your 语感. But maybe I'm biased because I'm a translator - most Chinese learners seem to be content with working on their fluency in Mandarin without focusing on their translation skills.

[Angelina]

I am a translator (English, Macedonian), too. Translators need to be fluent in both languages, if you put all of your energy into your second language, your first language will get rusty. The key is to keep using both languages.

 

However, you might prefer to use other ways to improve your translation skills, such as mapping the meaning of an item from L1 with an item from L2. I have never worked with Chinese, I can't tell people who are working with it what to do. There are things like 红包 which should be translated as 'red envelope' because the English speaking world has accepted this translation of the cultural phenomenon. Maybe a translator can come up with a more accurate translation of 红包, but red envelope is the more or less standard translation. You are free to choose your own study method, if you think you need to make these connections, feel free to do so. 

 

I was talking about translation both as a mental process and as a study method. Translation as a mental process asks for translation as a study method and then the latter reinforces the former. For example, you are thinking in English and trying to communicate your thoughts to a Chinese person. You can't express them because you don't know the right words in Mandarin for all the English words you want to use. You ask an English-speaking Chinese person or you consult a dictionary and then you 'learn' the right words and structures. Next time you have a similar thought you use what you have learned. Success. You keep mentally translating your thoughts. Until the day when you find a word or grammatical structure that can't be used the way you thought it could and you end up confused and desperate. Then you spend a very long time trying to come up with a theory about the use of this structure (translation as a study method) and after you think you have mastered it, you use it, thinking in English and translating your thoughts in Mandarin. 

[Gharial]

I think C is a levitating cat, B a car-lifting champion weightlifter cat, A a cat that's about to be run over, and D a pretty cool sunbathing cat.

 

But I'd necessarily have to go from English to Chinese for such concepts as my C, as I wouldn't be sure how to express it in Chinese ("magical or supernatural hovering" isn't among the commonly-expressed things in English at least, e.g. not in the LDOCE's top 3000 words).

 

"Seriously" though, perhaps the attached diagram in the OP could even be taken to be suggesting something along the lines of "English has as many prepositional phrases as Eskimos (the Inuit) have words for snow, and Chinese has not only no equivalents for those, but also no words for 'bonnet' or 'hood' or 'on the other side of, or thereabouts'".