Best and worst places in China to learn Mandarin

[ralphmat]

Hello, 

 

So I was just wondering whether there are certain places in China where they speak with the 'clearest' accent and speak 'standard' Mandarin. I know Beijing is supposed to be the best place in terms of clear pronunciation etc, but are there other places? Also, are there areas to definitely avoid as they have a very strong accent or dialect?

 

Thanks

[AdamD]

This thread will answer your question: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36568-best-place-to-study-chinese-nr-of-foreigners-climate-dialect-etc/

[anonymoose]

The problem with questions like this is that it masks the most important factor in learning Chinese, which is personal attitude. If you are prepared to put in the effort, you can learn mandarin anywhere.

 

Whether a region has a dialect or accent, I feel, is only a minor issue. Sure, you may not be able to eavesdrop people on the street (but let's face it, your mandarin has to be pretty advanced to do that, even in Beijing), but anyone you are likely to interact with, especially young people, will be able to speak more or less standard mandarin, whereever you are.

 

Possibly the only places in China I would not recommend for learning mandarin are Xinjiang and Tibet, but even then, I guess Urumqi and Lhasa would be OK.

[AdamD]

anyone you are likely to interact with, especially young people, will be able to speak more or less standard mandarin, whereever you are.

 

Yeah. People have told me not to bother with Shanghai, but some of the clearest 普通话 I've heard anywhere has been in Shanghai. In fact, I have a consistently easier time there than in Beijing, which surprises a lot of people when I tell them.

 

My single best tip about the worst place in China to learn Mandarin is this: don't spend time in any single place where English is common, wherever that may be. If you're in Shanghai, get out of 陆家嘴 (where Western business people seem to lock themselves away) and spend some time in 虹口 or 静安。 If you're in Beijing, stay the hell away from 三里屯 and hang around BNU and 四道口。 Or, go somewhere like 黑龙江 where I've been told the English-speaking Western presence is relatively low and 普通话 is in abundance.

[abcdefg]

>>"So I was just wondering whether there are certain places in China where they speak with the 'clearest' accent and speak 'standard' Mandarin."

 

People worry about this way too much. Figure out you where you'd enjoy living. That's the most important decision. Second important decision is to stay away from places where there are tons of English-speaking foreigners. Go to cities where that is easy to do instead of ones where that is hard to do.

 

My single best tip about the worst place in China to learn Mandarin is this: don't spend time in any single place where English is common, wherever that may be.

 

I agree with this astute observation.

[MarsBlackman]

Like others have said, be in a place where you enjoy living. What that means is different for everyone. For example, there have been times while studying Chinese where I've made greater strides learning the language outside of China simply because I was happier overall and had a more balanced life.

For me, staying away from foreign hubs with many English speakers isn't about speaking English with non-Chinese. It's that Chinese are more likely to speak English with you when you're in those areas. Speaking Chinese and having the person answer you in English becomes frustrating very quickly.

[AdamD]

For me, staying away from foreign hubs with many English speakers isn't about speaking English with non-Chinese. It's that Chinese are more likely to speak English with you when you're in those areas.

 

Yeah, I didn't explain myself properly but that's what I meant to say. The Pearl Tower/IFC part of Pudong is particularly unhelpful for that, although even there plenty of locals don't know enough English to do much more than make your coffee or find your shoe size.

 

I think common sense plays a big part here. If you're around a load of foreigners and the locals have a decent command of English, you're in a potential comfort zone and should move on quickly.

[anonymoose]

Yeah, I didn't explain myself properly but that's what I meant to say. The Pearl Tower/IFC part of Pudong is particularly unhelpful for that, although even there plenty of locals don't know enough English to do much more than make your coffee or find your shoe size.

 

I don't understand why any foreigner would go to those places to learn Chinese anyway. It's like people going to Big Ben to learn English or to the Eiffel Tower to learn French. Shanghai is a large city. Beijing is larger still. If you congregate around the main tourist attractions, which cover probably less than 0.1% of the area of the city, then it really shows a lack of reason.

[AdamD]

If you congregate around the main tourist attractions, which cover probably less than 0.1% of the area of the city, then it really shows a lack of reason.

 

That's obvious to us, but people who have never been might not have any concept of what's 1 km away from their hotel.

[anonymoose]

Of course, and I wouldn't expect anyone who has just arrived to be engaging in any meaningful conversation either. But there are also people who've been in Beijing or Shanghai for a year or more, and complain that these are terrible places to learn Chinese because everyone speaks English. That is just complete nonsense.

[AdamD]

But there are also people who've been in Beijing or Shanghai for a year or more, and complain that these are terrible places to learn Chinese because everyone speaks English. That is just complete nonsense.

 

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've never understood where that attitude comes from, unless the odd person is deluged with a pure English/Shanghainese mix or something.

 

Part of it is probably also ideological adherence to the One True Mandarin, which in a technical and official sense is fine, but it doesn't take much moving around to get a sense of just how liberally Mandarin is applied throughout the country. 儿化 in Beijing kills me, for example, but I always know that it's the same language underneath, and that plenty of other Beijingers don't speak that way.

 

Shanghai's got a load of English speakers, sure, but it's also got a humongous number of people from all over China. It makes sense that 普通话 would be their lingua franca, which could be why I have such an easy time understanding people in Shanghai.

[homwandamaximoff]

China is so large that nearly every single district has its own accent. For as far as I know, there wasn't a 普通话 before. Only after the war, they declared that Bejinger's accent is 普通话, so the best place to learn Chinese is obviously Beijing.

There are seven main dialects in China (picture's below; 官话 is 普通话) 粤语 is most different from 普通话. Even a Chinese can't understand it.

I'm a Beijinger. If you have any questions, I'm glad to answer. Hope my English isn't too bad.

[James W.]

I've been studying Mandarin seriously, and have spent my summers in China for the past 3 years.  My personal experience is that location DOES matter.   Most regions of China (Shanghai, Fujian, Guangdong, etc.) have their own dialects, and these are as different from each other as French, Italian and English for example.  The past two decades of  standardized language in movies and TV, along with expanded offerings have allowed more people to get a good grasp of standard Mandarin, but where regions have their own dialect, the 'standard' Mandarin is very heavily accented.

 

So if you are not proficient in Mandarin, and choose to live in an area with a heavy accent, people on the street, in classrooms, nearly everywhere will not understand you, and you will have difficulty understanding them.  They will even try and correct you to speak their own dialect.  This has been my experience, and it is very frustrating.

 

You want to live in the Northeast of China (where standard Mandarin originated) in order to be surrounded with the language you are learning.   This would be Beijing going north and east.  My favorite city is Harbin, because the air is very clean by China standards (except for the few days that they are clearing the dust out of their winter heating systems); the cost of living is low; the city is friendly and interesting (and growing); and the Mandarin is very standard.  There are probably a number of other cities in the Northeast that would similarly fit the bill, but this is my experience.  

 

And thoughts on where you definitely don't want to be (from a learning perspective).  Guangdong and Shanghai (not only do they have their own dialects, but also too many English speakers); Sichuan and Yunnan (very accented); most of the south coast of China and (especially) Hong Kong, where people seem to feel that their pronunciation is standard but to my ears is very difficult to understand.

 

It's all a matter of exposure to the right grammar and pronunciation (which reinforces what you learn); ability to converse (which is definitely more satisfying) and affordability.

[Basil]

What no-one seems to have mentioned yet, is that once it appears that you can just about understand the local dialect, nobody will speak to you in Mandarin again. I plummeted from conversations about rocket science to the colours of this or that brum-brum car...

[msittig]

EDIT: Never mind.

[112233]

I've studied in Beijing (~ 4 months) and Harbin (~8 months) so can offer my experiences as a reference on the two cities.

 

I started my studies in Beijing and had a great time, it's a fun city and exciting to be in the capital. On the most part the mandarin is relatively clear although some of the er-hua gets a bit difficult at times. I was there purely as a student, and with the amount of other foreigners in wudaokou etc. you'll have a lot of fun (good bar culture). While it was fun, after about 4 months there I decided to leave and go to Harbin. My reasons for leaving Beijing were that I was finding the large number of foreigners / western friends there very distracting for my studies, the cost of living and studying too much for my budget, and the feeling that I wasn't having a true immersive experience.

 

Harbin was a lot more of an immersive experience and I found that I improved a lot faster during the time I was there. There is a small foreigner community, but it was very much possible to operate completely in Chinese while I was there (this was my aim) without much effort. It was nice to have other foreigners around though when you needed a break from the language. While I was there I think I only met a few Chinese people who tried to speak with me in English - everyone else went straight to Chinese and were excited to speak with me. On the most part the mandarin lived up to it's reputation and was very clear and easy to understand. The living cost in Harbin was also a lot less than Beijing and this was a big pull for me. Socially, Beijing obviously has a lot more going on but Harbin was still good fun. There is a good bar scene / coffee shop scene and I actually found it easier to make Chinese friends while I was there compared to Beijing. I'm not too fussy about the pollution in China, but on the most part the air in Harbin was a lot clearer than in Beijing (the grey days in Beijing did get to me at times). 

 

In summary, Beijing was great fun and OK for studying Chinese, but if you want a more immersive experience in a city with clear / standard mandarin and a relatively low living cost Harbin is a fantastic choice and I'm very glad I decided to go there. At the end of the day the decision comes down to your personal preferences though and the experience is what you make it. Any questions on Beijing or Harbin please feel free to ask!

 

[Messidor]

An answer from a Chinese who's not a beijinger will be: There's none. Because native beijingers usually have beijing accent.The situation is that they either don't realize it or (unconsciously)try to deny it. Of course there/re many highly educated residents in beijing with nice accent, so are many other cities. The only place with "clearest" and "standard" pronunciation and usually without any accent (...sadly...) may be CCTV news(if you can put up with the distorted news).

As with the least bad place for "pure" pronunciation, beijing may be on the top of the list, since a foreigner with beijing accent is really "normal" to Chinese, but cantonese accents (or any other), that's weird.

PS it will be really difficult for foreignes to discern chinese accents as it is for chinese students to tell the different accents of Londoners.