Did Zhang Xueliang do the right thing?

Ian_Lee · 8th May 2004, 11:20 AM

NateM:

Probably you didn't watch the History Channel on cable.

One series is called something like "What if history can be rewritten......" (I think it is based on a book with the same title)

One episdoe talks about the civil war between KMT and CCP.

The program predicted that if KMT can hold land south of Yangtze, KMT might be on the upperhand in mid-'60s when the north fell under Cultural Revolution and the economic focus starts to shift to light industry when Shanghai and Guangzhou (which under KMT control) will strengthen the south.

The biggest mistake Chiang made was the over-commitment of his elite troops right after WWII into the unfamiliar territory -- Manchuria.

But if Chiang didn't do it, he would be condemned by the populace.

ala · 8th May 2004, 11:21 AM

Well to start off, Taiwan had a lot of rich Jiangnan-ren after 1949. While Dongbei didn't. Dongbei never had the kind of mercantilistic culture Jiangnan or Fujian has, and this may actually have something to do with it. Currently in Dongbei, outside of Dalian, investment goes in, debt comes out. Most of Dongbei look exactly like they were in 1970's, except more run down. The same for Henan, Shanxi. The so called industrial belt really is a funny term, because throughout the history of the PRC, Dongbei hasn't produced a lot of high quality industrial products. The bulk of government red ink goes to Dongbei accounts. Most steel manufacturing and consumption actually occurred in the Yangtse area (check out Baosteel today), not to mention the annually 1000 times of higher taxes that Jiangnan paid to CG in Beijing with a much smaller population. My 4 month trip up north didn't give me a very impressive feeling. The Yellow River was also dry where my train crossed. Chiang made a big mistake.

Ian_Lee · 11th May 2004, 05:06 AM

But the Northeast is the region best endowed with natural resources in the whole country.

Petroleum (though depleted somewhat), iron core, soybean, timber, ginseng,......etc.

Almost you name it, they got it.

Most likely its demise was an end result of the screw-up of the economic policy of Beijing in the early era (50s to 70s).

ala · 11th May 2004, 08:50 AM

and pervasive corruption in the NE.

holyman · 20th May 2004, 11:10 AM

Quote:

2nd, during the Japanese invasion, it was the CCP which bore the brunt of the fighting, oftentimes on two fronts from the Japanese and the GMD. If both of them together couldn't wipe out the CCP, what makes you think that the GMD alone would have?

wrong fact.

the kmt was the major forces in the sino-japanese war, thou incompetent sometimes. all major battles against the japanese forces were fought by kmt forces, the shanghai battle, wuhan battle, sino-burma borders, whatever. the fightings that the ccp actually participated was like less than half a dozen, the famous one being the 100battalion force towards the end of the sino-japanese war.

it was stategically correct for chiang to decide to wipe out the ccp first, since the japanese had more than 1 mil troops in china while the ccp, considered a rebel group then, has only 100k at most. but actual execution of plan was crap thou.

zhang xueliang did a dumb thing according to some people, saying that chiang was already thinking of working with the ccp b4 zhang held him hostage in xi'an. others said that zhang actually given the ccp a chance to survive, since after signing the pact kmt havent got much excuse to attack the ccp, thus a great help in the making of red china. therefore its only natural that the chinese govt see him as a patriot while chiang had him locked up the rest of his life.

bhchao · 21st May 2004, 12:31 AM

Quote:

2nd, during the Japanese invasion, it was the CCP which bore the brunt of the fighting, oftentimes on two fronts from the Japanese and the GMD. If both of them together couldn't wipe out the CCP, what makes you think that the GMD alone would have?

Definitely wrong. It was the KMT who bore the brunt of the fighting. Look at Shanghai, Taierzhuang, Changsha, Wuhan. The Japanese invasion significantly tied down KMT manpower and resources that could otherwise be used against the Communists. The Nationalists' base of power were in the coastal cities and the eastern part of China. This is where the Japanese occupation was centered and most of the fighting occured. So the Nationalists fought all the major battles in China during WWII. The Communists' base was in Yenan in north central China, and they controlled most of the countryside, an area where the Japanese reach is limited.

To look at it, the Communists took a holiday, watched the KMT wear itself down against the Japanese, launched limited guerrilla hit-and-run strikes against the Japanese, and took this time as an opportunity to rebuild its strength.

Although the KMT lost a majority of the battles against the Japanese, they proved that with strong leadership they can beat the Japanese. At the Battle of Taierzhuang, General Li Zongren brilliantly lured the Japanese into a trap and killed 30,000 of them in close quarters fighting.

The Japanese predicted that they can take over the whole of China in 1 month. However it took them 3 months just to take the city of Shanghai because KMT forces held them at bay for that long in street-to-street fighting.

From an objective standpoint, Communist China would not exist today if the Japanese did not invade.

Ian_Lee · 21st May 2004, 04:03 AM

There is a commonality between KMT and CCP at the end of WWII:

Both repatriated Japanese POWs back home ASAP under the permittable condition with the exception of dozens war criminals.

So if you were a Japanese soldier in China at the end of WWII, you would be lucky if you were in Shanghai and not in Shenyang. The former was repatriated by ship to Yokohama while the latter was caught by the Red Army and sent to Siberia or Mongolia and worked forced labor for 20 years.

There is another commonality between China and Japan in 1941:

When the news of Pearl Harbor attack was announced, the Tokyoites were elated and crowded the street. Ironically when the news spread to Chungking, the people there were also elated and crowded the street.

In hindsight, the Chinese were more correct in anticipating the ripple effect of Pear Harbor attack.

Bamboo Grove · 29th June 2004, 04:32 PM

Some years ago, I think it was CCTV 4 showed an excellent series about the happenings in Manchuria in the early and mid 30's. Can't remember the name of the series but I was able to watch it here in Thailand as well. Wonder if anybody could remember the name and if the series an whether it's possible to fink it on DVD. As it had English subtitles it was really enjoyable to watch. Are there any other historical stories on DVD's?

Bamboo Grove · 30th June 2004, 04:55 PM

After one night's sleep I think I can recall the name of the series. I think it was "Conspiracy in Far-East"

bhchao · 6th August 2004, 08:43 PM

Yang Hucheng, Zhang's co-conspirator in the Xian Incident, was not as fortunate. Yang and his whole family were taken out and stabbed with daggers. It is interesting that an unforgiveable person like Chiang did not kill Zhang Xueliang. I think Chiang owed him a big debt when he brought his troops over to the KMT regime. Zhang had always looked to Chiang as a brotherly figure.

Also it was very generous of 趙一荻 to stay by Zhang Xueliang's side throughout his years of captivity in house arrest in Taiwan. Mrs Chao was a teenager when she first met the dashing Young Marshal at a ballroom dance in 1928 Tianjin. It was instant love at first sight for her. At that time Zhang was already married and her behavior may have been seen as scandalous given the standards at the time. She was born into an aristocratic well-to-do family and this shocked her father, who published something in the newspaper saying that she is no longer his daughter.

When the Nationalists took Zhang Xueliang with them to Taiwan, Edith told Chiang Kaishek that she wanted to stay with Zhang throughout his years of house arrest. She remained free and was allowed to travel to and from the house to run errands or buy groceries for Zhang. Zhang's first wife at that time lived in the US and recognized that Edith's love and caring for him was genuine. She wrote a letter to Edith acknowledging that the two were probably soulmates. Edith and Zhang finally married in the early 1960's.

It was said that Zhang read books on the history of the Ming dynasty during his years of house arrest.

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8th May 2004, 11:20 AM	#11
Ian_Lee	NateM: Probably you didn't watch the History Channel on cable. One series is called something like "What if history can be rewritten......" (I think it is based on a book with the same title) One episdoe talks about the civil war between KMT and CCP. The program predicted that if KMT can hold land south of Yangtze, KMT might be on the upperhand in mid-'60s when the north fell under Cultural Revolution and the economic focus starts to shift to light industry when Shanghai and Guangzhou (which under KMT control) will strengthen the south. The biggest mistake Chiang made was the over-commitment of his elite troops right after WWII into the unfamiliar territory -- Manchuria. But if Chiang didn't do it, he would be condemned by the populace.

8th May 2004, 11:21 AM	#12
ala	Well to start off, Taiwan had a lot of rich Jiangnan-ren after 1949. While Dongbei didn't. Dongbei never had the kind of mercantilistic culture Jiangnan or Fujian has, and this may actually have something to do with it. Currently in Dongbei, outside of Dalian, investment goes in, debt comes out. Most of Dongbei look exactly like they were in 1970's, except more run down. The same for Henan, Shanxi. The so called industrial belt really is a funny term, because throughout the history of the PRC, Dongbei hasn't produced a lot of high quality industrial products. The bulk of government red ink goes to Dongbei accounts. Most steel manufacturing and consumption actually occurred in the Yangtse area (check out Baosteel today), not to mention the annually 1000 times of higher taxes that Jiangnan paid to CG in Beijing with a much smaller population. My 4 month trip up north didn't give me a very impressive feeling. The Yellow River was also dry where my train crossed. Chiang made a big mistake.

11th May 2004, 05:06 AM	#13
Ian_Lee	But the Northeast is the region best endowed with natural resources in the whole country. Petroleum (though depleted somewhat), iron core, soybean, timber, ginseng,......etc. Almost you name it, they got it. Most likely its demise was an end result of the screw-up of the economic policy of Beijing in the early era (50s to 70s).

11th May 2004, 08:50 AM	#14
ala	and pervasive corruption in the NE.

20th May 2004, 11:10 AM	#15
holyman	Quote: 2nd, during the Japanese invasion, it was the CCP which bore the brunt of the fighting, oftentimes on two fronts from the Japanese and the GMD. If both of them together couldn't wipe out the CCP, what makes you think that the GMD alone would have? wrong fact. the kmt was the major forces in the sino-japanese war, thou incompetent sometimes. all major battles against the japanese forces were fought by kmt forces, the shanghai battle, wuhan battle, sino-burma borders, whatever. the fightings that the ccp actually participated was like less than half a dozen, the famous one being the 100battalion force towards the end of the sino-japanese war. it was stategically correct for chiang to decide to wipe out the ccp first, since the japanese had more than 1 mil troops in china while the ccp, considered a rebel group then, has only 100k at most. but actual execution of plan was crap thou. zhang xueliang did a dumb thing according to some people, saying that chiang was already thinking of working with the ccp b4 zhang held him hostage in xi'an. others said that zhang actually given the ccp a chance to survive, since after signing the pact kmt havent got much excuse to attack the ccp, thus a great help in the making of red china. therefore its only natural that the chinese govt see him as a patriot while chiang had him locked up the rest of his life.

21st May 2004, 12:31 AM	#16
bhchao	Quote: 2nd, during the Japanese invasion, it was the CCP which bore the brunt of the fighting, oftentimes on two fronts from the Japanese and the GMD. If both of them together couldn't wipe out the CCP, what makes you think that the GMD alone would have? Definitely wrong. It was the KMT who bore the brunt of the fighting. Look at Shanghai, Taierzhuang, Changsha, Wuhan. The Japanese invasion significantly tied down KMT manpower and resources that could otherwise be used against the Communists. The Nationalists' base of power were in the coastal cities and the eastern part of China. This is where the Japanese occupation was centered and most of the fighting occured. So the Nationalists fought all the major battles in China during WWII. The Communists' base was in Yenan in north central China, and they controlled most of the countryside, an area where the Japanese reach is limited. To look at it, the Communists took a holiday, watched the KMT wear itself down against the Japanese, launched limited guerrilla hit-and-run strikes against the Japanese, and took this time as an opportunity to rebuild its strength. Although the KMT lost a majority of the battles against the Japanese, they proved that with strong leadership they can beat the Japanese. At the Battle of Taierzhuang, General Li Zongren brilliantly lured the Japanese into a trap and killed 30,000 of them in close quarters fighting. The Japanese predicted that they can take over the whole of China in 1 month. However it took them 3 months just to take the city of Shanghai because KMT forces held them at bay for that long in street-to-street fighting. From an objective standpoint, Communist China would not exist today if the Japanese did not invade.

21st May 2004, 04:03 AM	#17
Ian_Lee	There is a commonality between KMT and CCP at the end of WWII: Both repatriated Japanese POWs back home ASAP under the permittable condition with the exception of dozens war criminals. So if you were a Japanese soldier in China at the end of WWII, you would be lucky if you were in Shanghai and not in Shenyang. The former was repatriated by ship to Yokohama while the latter was caught by the Red Army and sent to Siberia or Mongolia and worked forced labor for 20 years. There is another commonality between China and Japan in 1941: When the news of Pearl Harbor attack was announced, the Tokyoites were elated and crowded the street. Ironically when the news spread to Chungking, the people there were also elated and crowded the street. In hindsight, the Chinese were more correct in anticipating the ripple effect of Pear Harbor attack.

29th June 2004, 04:32 PM	#18
Bamboo Grove	Some years ago, I think it was CCTV 4 showed an excellent series about the happenings in Manchuria in the early and mid 30's. Can't remember the name of the series but I was able to watch it here in Thailand as well. Wonder if anybody could remember the name and if the series an whether it's possible to fink it on DVD. As it had English subtitles it was really enjoyable to watch. Are there any other historical stories on DVD's?

30th June 2004, 04:55 PM	#19
Bamboo Grove	After one night's sleep I think I can recall the name of the series. I think it was "Conspiracy in Far-East"

6th August 2004, 08:43 PM	#20
bhchao	Yang Hucheng, Zhang's co-conspirator in the Xian Incident, was not as fortunate. Yang and his whole family were taken out and stabbed with daggers. It is interesting that an unforgiveable person like Chiang did not kill Zhang Xueliang. I think Chiang owed him a big debt when he brought his troops over to the KMT regime. Zhang had always looked to Chiang as a brotherly figure. Also it was very generous of 趙一荻 to stay by Zhang Xueliang's side throughout his years of captivity in house arrest in Taiwan. Mrs Chao was a teenager when she first met the dashing Young Marshal at a ballroom dance in 1928 Tianjin. It was instant love at first sight for her. At that time Zhang was already married and her behavior may have been seen as scandalous given the standards at the time. She was born into an aristocratic well-to-do family and this shocked her father, who published something in the newspaper saying that she is no longer his daughter. When the Nationalists took Zhang Xueliang with them to Taiwan, Edith told Chiang Kaishek that she wanted to stay with Zhang throughout his years of house arrest. She remained free and was allowed to travel to and from the house to run errands or buy groceries for Zhang. Zhang's first wife at that time lived in the US and recognized that Edith's love and caring for him was genuine. She wrote a letter to Edith acknowledging that the two were probably soulmates. Edith and Zhang finally married in the early 1960's. It was said that Zhang read books on the history of the Ming dynasty during his years of house arrest.