English question regarding word 'Chinese'

[md1101]

Something that always bugs me is usage of the word 'Chinese' as in

'He is a Chinese'

or 'I am a Chinese'

To me it doesnt sound right as a noun. It must be 'He is Chinese' or 'He is from China' or 'He is a Chinese person/guy/girl'

But in the dictionary it says it can be used as a noun but does it sound right that way to you people? I've only heard Chinese people use it that way anyway.

[gato]

Are you not an Australian?

[HashiriKata]

Does "a German", "an American", etc. sound right to you?

I think in the end it all depends on how often we hear it used in a particular way. "The poor" and "the rich" might have started life only as adjectives...

[Language Guy]

While words like "Chinese" are much more widespread as plural nouns (i.e. the Chinese are hardworking people), as a singular noun, it still is correct, much like an American, a Norwegian, etc.

What I always found awkward is using the noun "French" as singular... I just can't do it. I have to instead say a Frenchman or Frenchwoman.

[roddy]

I do think the blunt 'Chinese' or 'Australian' grates a little - if you're just going to make the statement, I think you'd be more likely to say 'He is Chinese / Australian'. If I hear "He's a Chinese" I kind of feel like I'm left hanging, thinking "But a Chinese WHAT?!" I think maybe Chinese people use it in English because it feels closer to 我是中国人, rather than I'm Chinese which may feel a bit like they are saying 我是中国的。

But that's all speculation.

Roddy

PS English questions, btw, go under other cultures.

[wushijiao]

I agree with mickdriscoll that "Chinese" doesn't sound right as a noun describing a person. I know it is correct according to the dictionary, but it still sounds slightly strange and a bit offensive. (I think American racists generally refer to Asians using their noun forms: ie. He's a Jap/He's a Chinese/He's a Vietnamese/ Look at that (insert racial slur here)). Perhaps because of this, I have almost only heard the adective+noun construction in polite conversation. But, again, I'm just guessing as to why it sounds odd.

So I always use it as an adj., ie, "She is a Chinese person".

[md1101]

well good to know most people agree that is sounds odd. i know german, australian, american, all sound fine in a single noun form. thats why i thought the question was interesting.

Anyway i think the consensus is you can say it as 'He is A Chinese'... its gramatically correct. but it sounds wrong. and i dont think many native speakers would say it like this.

Are you not an Australian?

yes. did you know even English people study English? its dumbfounding isnt it?

Languague Guy,

Dictionary.com describes the noun of 'French' as "the people of France and their direct descendants." So according to the definition, saying "The French think..." etc is okay. But it does not say it can be used to describe a single inhabitant of France like it does for Chinese, Australia etc. So at least here we know why we've never heard is spoken that way. "he is a French"...

[gato]

did you know even English people study English? its dumbfounding isnt it?

Amazing!

Are you not an Australian?

I guess I should have put the "an" in caps.

[md1101]

lol.. I thought there was a possibility you meant that Gato. ummm... anyway its your fault for not being clear so you'll just have to take my earlier sarcastic response.

[in_lab]

The situtation for the words French and Chinese is similar. It used to be you could say "he's a Frenchman/Chinaman." The dictionary lists "Chinaman" as "usally offensive" but doesn't have any warning about Frenchman. The dictionary lists "Frenchwoman," but I don't think I've ever seen that (there's no way of knowing if I've heard it). But there is no entry for Chinawoman.

[md1101]

i did a google seach for the phrase "He is a Chinese" and nearly all of the returns (in the snippets) have Chinese used as an adjective. as in "He is a Chinese man/American" etc. There are a few that dont have it that way but they seem to be always written by a Chinese writer or other foreigner like a professional translator. I guess anyone learning English as a second language would be prone to using it as a noun because its defined that way.

I would tell my students (if i ever teach in china again) not to use it as a noun though so they sound a little more native. As Roddy said, you are otherwise left hanging 'yes.. a Chinese what?!'

[andrewfz]

wierd....i never thought of it before...

I guess some nationalities sound good as a singular noun.. (a german, an australian, an afghan, an italian, a Canadian, an indonesian).

Others just dont work as singular nouns. (plural OK)...in this category i would list chinese, english, irish, scottish, french. I am a welshman rather than a welsh....

Some even have specific words for singular nouns...a Scot, a Dane, a Swede.

[johnd]

...in this category i would list chinese, english, irish, scottish, french.

a Chinaman, an Englishman, a Scot, a Frog (sh)

The word Chinaman has been poluted by racism and is now lost in the mists of time. But would it have been the correct word to use?

[HashiriKata]

The word Chinaman has been poluted by racism and is now lost in the mists of time. But would it have been the correct word to use?

The word itself is fine but it usually ends up taking the colour we've painted it with. So much so that, in contrast with the word "Chinaman", the word "Englishman" actual brings up a very positive, sometimes even romantic, image. The same goes with:

I think American racists generally refer to Asians using their noun forms: ie. He's a Jap/He's a Chinese/He's a Vietnamese/ Look at that (insert racial slur here)

but the negative association doesn't apply to "Canadian", "Australian", or any nationality of the "white league".

Anyway, enough of the digression and the following is what I've come to say:

a) When we speak impersonally or in the 3rd person, it's generally ok to refer to someone as a Chinese, an Australian, an American, a German, etc:

He's a Chinese/ an Australian/ an American/ a German.

She married a Chinese/ an Australian/ an American/ a German.

B) However, when we speak in that person's presence (in the 1st or 2nd person), it usually sounds much better with the adjective forms:

Are you Chinese/ Australian/ American/ German?

Yes, I'm Chinese/ Australian/ American/ German.

So when a Chinese person says "I'm a Chinese", he doesn't sound quite right because it's against the above observations.

[md1101]

yes... but i still think it sounds wierd to say "She married a Chinese" it would have to be "She married a Chinese guy/man".

[roddy]

Agreed. Again, I'd want to ask "She married a Chinese what?". Which might be rude.

[kudra]

Again, I'd want to ask "She married a Chinese what?".

Yeah, bummer, English being so context dependent.

[Lu]

yes... but i still think it sounds wierd to say "She married a Chinese" it would have to be "She married a Chinese guy/man".

Again, I'd want to ask "She married a Chinese what?". Which might be rude.

I'd think 'She married a Chinese man' is a bit redundant. What else would she have married, a Chinese fish? Of course, she might have married a Chinese woman, but as that's not obvious, it would make sense to explicitly say it was indeed a woman if that was the case.

But actually 'She married a Chinese' sounds a little bit racist to me. It's ok to say 'she married a lawyer' or 'she married her childhood sweetheart', but if the person she married happens to be Chinese, I'd rather say 'She got married. Her husband's from China.' I think this makes it sounds more like 'isn't that interesting' instead of 'Chinaman'.

[md1101]

But actually 'She married a Chinese' sounds a little bit racist to me

Obviously im missing some historical mis-treatment of the Chinese (or perhaps present day racism?) here but saying that the above sentence sounds racist seems to imply being 'Chinese' is somehow unfortunate. Then again i also think there is nothing wrong with saying Jap being short for Japanese person. But i hear due to the way they were referred to in WW2 it is offensive to be called a Jap.

Maybe it depends on where you're brought up as well. From what i've heard from my American friends there is a lot more racism there than here in Oz.

[HashiriKata]

"She married a Chinese"

Again, I'd want to ask "She married a Chinese what?".

I think you must be speaking English with a kind of confused intonation . I think "She married a Chinese" and "She married a Chinese... (something)" should have completely different intonations at the word "Chinese".