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djwebb2004

的地得

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djwebb2004

1, Am I right in saying that the three particles 的地得 were originally all written 的? When did the Chinese start writting them differently according to grammatical function?

2, Is my impression right that more and more Chinese are ignoring the artificial distinctions between these characters and written them all as 的? Particularly 地 for adverbial phrases seems to be often written as 的. Is this increasing over time?

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anonymoose
1, Am I right in saying that the three particles 的地得 were originally all written 的? When did the Chinese start writting them differently according to grammatical function?

As far as I know, they have always been different. In dialects other than Mandarin, I believe they even have different pronunciations.

2, Is my impression right that more and more Chinese are ignoring the artificial distinctions between these characters and written them all as 的? Particularly 地 for adverbial phrases seems to be often written as 的. Is this increasing over time?

It does seem a lot of Chinese writers ignore the differences, but that is probably down to sloppy standards, just as native English speakers often make mistakes with simple English (eg. he must of missed the bus, etc.)

Hopefully you'll get a better answer from someone more in the know than me.

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zhwj

底 was also used for a while in some situations that 的 covers.

Here's a page that compares different dictionary definitions, and here's a scholarly article with more history and analysis of 的 than you probably wish to know. From the intro:

现代汉语虚词中,“的”字是研究得最透彻的。对“的”字的深入研究始于朱德熙1961年的《说“的”》。由于“的”本身在现代汉语虚词中的重要地位,也由于朱德熙在分析方法上的新颖,该文引起了汉语语法学界的极大重视,引发了持久而深入的讨论。

  朱德熙(1961)认为“的”可以分为副词性后附成分“的[,1]”、形容词性后附成分“的[,2]”和名词性后附成分“的[,3]”。“的[,1]”和“的[,2]”相当于唐宋时期的描写性的“地”,而“的[,3]”相当于唐宋时期的区别性的“底”(朱德熙,1966)。

  从意义上看,吕叔湘(1943)认为,“地”是“描写性”的而“底”则是“区别性”的。朱德熙认为两者由于语音上的合并导致了书面写法的归并,而根据分布和功能,实质上仍应该分成三个“的”。

Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe that usage is getting less strict?

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imron

I think the less strict part has a lot to do with modern Chinese input methods on computers which guess the "correct" character, and often just guess 的. Sloppy proof-reading and/or laziness to change it, leads to 的 appearing in places that should use 地 or 得.

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cjbaker

I think that in exaggerated, slow Mandarin speech and other special situations you can even tell them apart by tone. For example if you wanted to emphasize the 得 in 看得懂 (for example if someone misheard 得 as 不) I've heard it with a rising tone instead of neutral, where 的 seems to have a falling tone when it's really emphasized (which doesn't happen often, but the name of a company my friend works for happens to have 的 in it and people always need to have her say it again). Can anyone else confirm this? Of course in Mandarin this could be a result of people making a "new" distinction just because of the writing system, like pronouncing the 't' sound in "often".

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YETIboy1230
I think that in exaggerated, slow Mandarin speech and other special situations you can even tell them apart by tone. For example if you wanted to emphasize the 得 in 看得懂 (for example if someone misheard 得 as 不) I've heard it with a rising tone instead of neutral, where 的 seems to have a falling tone when it's really emphasized"....

i have repeated these words to myself for times:"看得懂吗?“”你得这样!“,"你的?”,"你他这样说的?”...

after doing many times,i find it would work better if i put the punctuation on them.so i did in my samples.

"看得懂吗你?“--in this sentence,i speak like this"看得得懂懂懂吗吗你?”[the longer,the more emphasis i put on it]...tone is rising till "d懂” and beginning to fall down at "吗“

"你得这样”---“你得得这这这样样”..note "这" is the peak....

so i find it that mostly we get a rising tone at "得“ because there is a "peak" after it

"你的?“ ---‘你你的的的的?“ imagine this:with a book in my hand i am yelling at a poor victim to find if this book is mine:"你的?”...

in this case, i want to indicate that i am doubting if the poor dog is owner of the book.......NOTE:"的"is indeed emphasized with a rising tone.....

well actually,if you want me to tell you what is diffrence between them or is there any rull for them,you really place me into a brain teaser....i don't know if you don't have enough patience :roll: coz i have to repeat it to myself thousands times to get it gradually.....

i hope i didn't add complexity to it :mrgreen:

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chenpv
"看得懂吗?""你得这样!"

Donno, but I do read the first one 'de' while the latter 'dei3'.

BTW, since we are discussing ‘的’,how can I understand your username then?:mrgreen: yeti's 1230th boy? or a yetiboy named 1230? or yeti named boy1230? or maybe other possibilities....

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YETIboy1230
Donno, but I do read the first one 'de' while the latter 'dei3'.

BTW, since we are discussing ‘的’,how can I understand your username then? yeti's 1230th boy? or a yetiboy named 1230? or yeti named boy1230? or maybe other possibilities....

hoho....YETIboy is my nickname...1230 is the number of Yetigirls that play with me:wink: ......haha....well...it is just my birthday..:)....that is the only possibility.....

of course..i pronounce them as you do.....BTW,are you a Native?[of course,being this situation,Native means chinese folks not native english speaker as i mean in most cases]:roll:

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skylee

Yeti ... are you by any chance the Yeti of this website?

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YETIboy1230
Yeti ... are you by any chance the Yeti of this website?

by no chance i am the Yeti you refered to:)..coz it is my third times here as of now.seems that i have a big brother here that i don't know..i wonder if he is as hairy as i am?:roll: ...BTW,your family name is "Li"?

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djwebb2004

I've just been reading Lu Xun's Diary of a Madman, and he clearly uses 的 when 地 might be called for, so I don't think that 地 has always been required for adverbial phrases. Also Lu Xun uses 他 to refer both to women and the plural (instead of either 她 or 他们). He also uses 那 for 哪.

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