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Ian_Lee

Northern slangs used in Guangzhou newspaper

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Quest
Quest, should I remind you that America, by your definition, belongs to the "Red Indians" ? No need yet to mention Spanish speakers taking over, should we first drive all English speakers out of this continent?

You are right, and that's what I'd call "too late". So before it's too late, albeit wishful thinking, or just venting, I'd wish the invaders repsect the local culture and language.

What's the reason for such interdialectal racism? Is this limited to Cantonese vs Mandarin?

I would have no problems with any migrants if they did not threaten the local culture and the language. It's a fact that as the trend continues, Cantonese will become weaker and weaker at its home base.

Most of the new immigrants to Guangzhou aren't "Northerners" per se, but are from Hunan, Sichuan, Jiangxi, and Guangxi, the southern provinces that surround Guangdong. This may not add anything to the debate, but take it as a factual correction, if you will.

They come from all directions. There used to be a saying 东南西北中........

唔好"I think"啦。实际D,唔该快D叫FBI黎查我啦,我话埋俾你知,我地家族o既族谱就放左系我屋企o既二楼咋! ~ ~ 我宜家真系好惊惊啊~ ~!惊住你叫唔郁D FBI,叫呢度D派出所o既阿 Sir 黎查啦!

studentyoung, 你放心,我只不过系随便问下。我记得喺你发表"新广州人"之前,我已经问过你一次。你唔想讲,我亦唔会有兴趣知。讲广州话土生土长喺广州嘅都有好多种人。我话大概知你系属于边一类嘅意思,唔系话你一定系外地人。我自己认识嘅广州朋友入面,会同你同一见解嘅亦有人在。我觉得包容系有限度,当你自己生长嘅地方完全变晒样,自己讲嘅语言面临死亡嘅时候,我相信任何热爱广州嘅本地人都会作出反抗。我喺呢度只不过系呻两句。估唔到,讲西藏就大把人同情,大把人话内陆移民入侵西藏。但系讲到广州,啲人就你死你嘅事,最好广州话消失就仲啱。

喺自己嘅城市讲自己嘅语言被人话你野蛮,对呢挺人呻两句就被人话你歧视,仲有乜好讲~

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wannabeafreak
wannabeafreak, which part of the city did you go to?

There was nearly 80% northerners in 花巿, Cantonese people were definitely the minority. The other places I can't remember because it was written in Mandarin Pinyin and I can't speak Mandarin at all.

I stayed in a suburb called 碧桂園 and there were only Cantonese speakers. Actually at the restaurants, the waitress kept trying to speak Putonghua, while my wife's family even though the GZ relatives could speak fluent Putonghua refused to speak it and forced the waitress to use her limited Cantonese.

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Ian_Lee

Well, I follow studentyoung's reference and browse Guangzhou Daily and find the following interesting article:

http://gzdaily.dayoo.com/html/2007-02/19/content_22878941.htm

According to this Putonghua promotional article, Putonghua can replace dermatologist! After you speak Putonghua, the rashes on your body will disappear :lol:

Hmmm......I just wonder if mumbling in Putonghua instead of Cantonese during sex may more easily push you to orgasm!

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studentyoung
or just venting, I'd wish the invaders repsect the local culture and language.
I would have no problems with any migrants if they did not threaten the local culture and the language.

Didn’t I tell you the words below?

Ah, yes, you are right that most of northern immigrants in Guangzhou do pick up Cantonese, though not all of them can master it very well. Most of them even learn to boil herbal soup (老火靓汤),enjoy morning / evening tea (喝早茶/夜茶),and walk around flower market on the eve of Spring Festival, etc. They try to learn the local traditions step by step, while living and working in Guangzhou. And I think it is why local Cantonese call them “新广州人”. :mrgreen:

你知唔知呢度D卡拉OK,竟然有外地人黎唱粤曲——o甘算唔算系尊重当地文化?——你自问一下,你自己又唱到几句粤曲?而你,有咩资格叫人地做侵略者? 我问你,你系美国又做左D咩?

I bet that if you shop calling them “invader”, they will more gladly and willingly respect the local culture and the language. What’s more,Quest, I wonder if you could tell me whether you have done anything to respect the “Red Indians’” local culture and the language in U.S.?

It's a fact that as the trend continues, Cantonese will become weaker and weaker at its home base.

你不如担心下你个仔以后系美国仲识唔识讲广州话仲实际啦。Isn’t it more practical to just focus on whether your son/s can speak Cantonese or not?

They come from all directions. There used to be a saying 东南西北中........

No matter where they come from, if you, Quest, could do all the farming work, all the construction work, all production work, and all the medical research in genetics and stem cell, etc. that Guangzhou needs, I could ask 张广宁, our mayor, to let all those workers from other places go home and let you pick up all the rest, OK?

当你自己生长嘅地方完全变晒样,

You are right that Guangzhou has changed greatly, and it is because of the policy called “三年一中变,五年一大变”.

自己讲嘅语言面临死亡

点解话广州话面临死亡?就算系,你生多几个仔,o甘广州话咪可以代代相传o罗?生仔又唔见你o甘落力,剩系识得系度大声夹无准.。 Why do you say that Cantonese is facing up to its doom? If you do think so, you can still have more sons, so that Cantonese can be passed through generation to generation. Why do you just waste your time and energy by insulting other people, instead of working hard to have more sons?

我相信任何热爱广州嘅本地人都会作出反抗。

Are you sure that what you should really fight back? There are so many ways to promote Cantonese, no need to insult others, right?

喺自己嘅城市讲自己嘅语言被人话你野蛮,

唔喺“喺自己嘅城市讲自己嘅语言被人话你野蛮”,而喺你用广州话去诋毁个D黎广州工作、生活嘅外地人,就喺野蛮喺表现。

但系讲到广州,啲人就你死你嘅事,最好广州话消失就仲啱。

我地呢度D广州人(包括我自己)从来都没话过“最好广州话消失就仲啱”。我地呢度仲有粤语培训班,专门教D外地人学粤语,你既然有忧患意识,点解你唔番黎办学校,为推广粤语多做D贡献?

对呢挺人呻两句就被人话你歧视,仲有乜好讲~

Quest, dare you ask those northern members (who maybe haven’t stepped on Guangzho) on this forum whether they feel hurt and insulted because of your words?

There was nearly 80% northerners in 花巿, Cantonese people were definitely the minority.

It is really out of the point. Even Cantonese people can’t outnumber those from other places, can those from other places deserve any insult because they have to make a living in Guangzhou? What’s more, I have heard that there will no 花市 on the eve of Spring Festival in northern cites, can we say that these northerners respect the local traditions?

I stayed in a suburb called 碧桂園 and there were only Cantonese speakers. Actually at the restaurants, the waitress kept trying to speak Putonghua, while my wife's family even though the GZ relatives could speak fluent Putonghua refused to speak it and forced the waitress to use her limited Cantonese.

Wannabeafreak, dared your wife’ s relatives to force any foreigners in Guangzhou to speak Cantonese, if they met them in Guangzhou? Dared your wife’s relatives fore me to speak Cantonese, if they saw I was walking with my foreign friends? Dared you, wannabeafreak, force me to speak Cantonese, if I keep speaking in English in Hong Kong? 强权高压 is not the right way to promote Cantonese (the same to Putonghua), which makes a local person like me feel disgusting!

I quite understand why your wife’s relative refused to speak Putonghua, but who even gave he/her any right to force other to speak Cantonese? If you, wannabeafreak, feel odd to be forced to speak Putonghua and need others to respect your choice, please respect others’ choice and don’t force others to speak Cantonese, what is called “mutual respect”. I just can’t understand why a Chinese person can’t speak Putonghua in China mainland? Isn’t it the national language? It is just as a US citizen can’t speak in English in US, but is forced to speak in Spanish.

Thanks!

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skylee
Why do you say that Cantonese is facing up to its doom? If you do think so, you can still have more sons, so that Cantonese can be passed through generation to generation. Why do you just waste your time and energy by insulting other people, instead of working hard to have more sons?

Isn't there a one-child policy in China? Is there some exemption in Guangzhou for people who speak Cantonese to have more sons (and how about daughters btw)? Or perhaps you meant that Quest should raise a big Cantonese-speaking family in the US?

I know very little about Guangzhou and have only been there once. My impression is that many people spoke in Cantonese (and the Cantonese announcement of the underground etc), which I didn't expect.

I think all Quest and Ian are saying (this is what I think :D ) is that outsiders who come to a place are expected to respect and adapt to the local culture, speak the local language/dialect and eventually become local, which is the same process taking place in HK where outsiders gradually turn into HK people. Unfortunately this may not be the case for Guangzhou. I wouldn't like to have to speak in Mandarin in HK, which is the same as what Quest feels. The only difference being that he has moved to the US, but this doesn't mean that he has no right to say what he thinks, for Guangzhou is his hometown, as long as it is civilised. It is really not necessary to focus on the fact that he is not in China.

I think when a culture is strong and lively, people would adopt it. Some Mandarin-speaking mainlanders do enjoy HK TV although they admit that they do not understand Cantonese and have to watch the Mando version. Ian has in another thread pointed out that top mainland students are getting into universities in HK, where they have to learn and speak in Cantonese (I am quite sure about this). I think if the Cantonese culture (including pop-culture) gets stronger and better, or maybe if we get richer (財大才可以氣粗嘛 :D ), people will want to be one of us.

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Ian_Lee

If one works in the service industry, he/she should speak what the customer speaks.

If the customer speaks Cantonese, then the waitress should reciprocate with Cantonese. If the customer speakers Putonghua, then the waitress should reciprocate with Putonghua.

It is called "Customer First"!

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studentyoung
If one works in the service industry, he/she should speak what the customer speaks.
It is called "Customer First"!

I see. If you work in KFC in US, it means you should know all the languages under the sun, right? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Thanks!

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gato

I think this whole chain of argument started because the word "invasion" was used. It could have all been avoided if everyone had been reasonable like skylee and advocated instead for mutual respect. Language always seem to touch a raw nerve in people. The coercive ways that the Chinese government has promoted Mandarin doesn't help. Ways should be found to preserve minority languages perhaps (ironically Cantonese seems to be the ONLY minority language that stands much of a chance), but given the traditional discrimination against rural folks and the system of resident permit that prevented internal movement that wushijiao mentioned, one should be sensitive of the need for fairness and the pressures that cause people to move to cities like Guangzhou. Most of the people moving into Guangzhou, as I showed above, are not northerners from Beijing or Qingdao, but southerners from nearby provinces like Sichuan or Hunan. Calling northerners when they are not is unnecessarily divisive. It'll take time for them to adapt to the local culture. Just try to be nice to each other and get along in the meantime.

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studentyoung
Isn't there a one-child policy in China? Is there some exemption in Guangzhou for people who speak Cantonese to have more sons (and how about daughters btw)? Or perhaps you meant that Quest should raise a big Cantonese-speaking family in the US?

Yes, skylee:D , you are right there is one-child policy in China. As for the condition in Guangzhou, many local women refuse to get married too early and even choose to create a DINK family. Ah, it is so hard to raise a child here. I think it is the same or, at least, similar condition in Hong Kong. Daughters? No. The outstanding example is 许广平. I just wonder if 鲁迅’s grandson can speak any Cantonese or not. And even boys are not so dependable all the time. I know someone who is a Hong Kong citizen, and he has refused to speak Cantonese any more (but he still speaks English in his daily life) since he fell in love with a Japanese girl five years ago. Now I see what is called “Love can conquer everything”! And now this guy is expecting to meet his parents-in-low in Japan and hoping to marry the girl soon and settle down in Japan.

Or perhaps you meant that Quest should raise a big Cantonese-speaking family in the US?

Yes, I think it might be a good way to make him feel better. And I also wish that he could raise a big Cantonese-speaking family which is big enough to outnumber those outsiders in Guangzhou.

I think all Quest and Ian are saying (this is what I think ) is that outsiders who come to a place are expected to respect and adapt to the local culture, speak the local language/dialect and eventually become local, which is the same process taking place in HK where outsiders gradually turn into HK people. Unfortunately this may not be the case for Guangzhou.

Skylee:D , I think you might agree that this process takes a long time, say at least 50 years or longer, right? I think the most important thing for those from other places is to make a stable living at first, so that they won’t cause great social trouble in Guangzhou. As a Guangzhou’s local people, I think it should be thoughtful to create relative tolerant social surroundings for those outsiders. I think it might be quite hard for those outsiders, who are in a strange place and facing up to the hostility from local people, to lean the local language and culture very easily at once.

Guangzhou is part of China, not part of U.S. I remember that when my friend’s relatives immigrated to U.S., all their kids were sent to free-changed language school to study English. But it is almost impossible for Guangzhou’s Government to send all those from other places to study Cantonese at first. Yet it seems that Quest just blames all the responsibility to a lot of innocent people, which I think it is really unfair.

I wouldn't like to have to speak in Mandarin in HK, which is the same as what Quest feels.

Sigh ~ ~! Sklyee, it is really hard to tell. If the current green-house effect continued to get worse, I couldn’t guarantee whether Hong Kong would become a city under the sea or not. I hope this nightmare is just a dream. But what if one day we all had to get crowed together in a very little place with a lot of strangers from many other places?

The only difference being that he has moved to the US, but this doesn't mean that he has no right to say what he thinks, for Guangzhou is his hometown, as long as it is civilised. It is really not necessary to focus on the fact that he is not in China.

I don’t want to focus on the fact the he is a U.S. citizen, but I would like to remind hem he has no right to insult others as “invader”, because he is also an invader to those Red Indians in U.S., according to his logic! I don’t even deny his right to say what he thinks, but no matter he moved to the US or not, he has no right to hurt or insult any outsiders. Guangzhou is also my hometown. The contradictions among people (人民内部矛盾) between local Cantonese people and those outsiders become acute is the last thing I want to see. And I hope Quest to understand that if the contradictions among people between local Cantonese people and those outsiders did become acute, it would do Guangzhou no good.

Ian has in another thread pointed out that top mainland students are getting into universities in HK, where they have to learn and speak in Cantonese (I am quite sure about this).

Yes, I knew this condition from a Hong Kong TV program called “Sunday File星期日档案”. I am quite sure that the same condition is in Guangzhou, and not just among those university students. I just wonder how can Quest say those who he calls “invaders” don’t know how to respect local culture and don’t learn to speak local language? Can he put down his bias right from today放低偏见,就在今天 and treat every one equally 平等看待每一个人?:wink:

I think if the Cantonese culture (including pop-culture) gets stronger and better, or maybe if we get richer (財大才可以氣粗嘛 ), people will want to be one of us.

财大气粗is Ok, but 财大无德 is too terrible. U.S. is a rich country, but not every one in North Korea and Vietnam want to be a US citizen, because U.S. government once hurt people in these places. No matter how rich Japanese can be, those 尉安妇 will never want to be a Japanese. If Quest want to promote Cantonese among those outsiders in Guangzhou, he should learn to 以德服人,以理&礼服人. Of course, he can, right? :mrgreen:

I think this whole chain of argument started because the word "invasion" was used.

Yes, you just hit the nail, Gato. Thank you so much! :D

Thanks!

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skylee

studentyoung, somehow I feel offended by your repeated use of 靓女. Adding "Thanks!" at the end of each of your post does not necessarily make you sound polite.

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Ian_Lee

studentyoung:

One does not need to know all the languages but the major languages that most customers frequently use.

In U.S., one would expect to be able to communicate in Spanish or English if he shops in El Paso or Laredo. Over here in Waikiki, most sales personnel in the shops there can speak English as well as Japanese. If you shop in Tsimshatsui in Hong Kong, the sales lady should be expected to communicate with the customers in Cantonese, Putonghua, English, as well as Japanese and Korean to certain degree.

Even though Putonghua is the official language in Guangzhou, undeniably Cantonese is still spoken by a huge segment of the population. As one who works in the service industry there, he/she should be at least fluent in Putonghua as well as Cantonese.

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elina

Studentyoung and Skylee, by reading the posts, I like some people on this forum, including both of you. I like people to be upright and frank, I admire your 人品/ moral quality, and really don’t hope you two 伤了感情 in the discussion of this thread.

I have only visited Guangzhou twice many many years ago when I was a child, I cannot remember the daily language used there then. So I have no 发言权 about which language (Cantonese or Putonghua) is used more often in Guangzhou now. I understand the feeling that the local people wish to protect their language and culture, it’s quite reasonable, of course the outsider should respect this. But can the local people give some time for the outsider to learn their language and culture? I think in this thread, some people’s saying of “mutual respect” is a good viewpoint.

Actually at the restaurants, the waitress kept trying to speak Putonghua, while my wife's family even though the GZ relatives could speak fluent Putonghua refused to speak it and forced the waitress to use her limited Cantonese.

Since you use the character of “limited”, which means she does not do it on purpose, it’s because she really does not know much Cantonese, furthermore, maybe she is afraid that her poor Cantonese cannot communicate with other people well, then she uses her familiar Putonghua, in order to serve you guests better. I’m not sure about other people, but if I’m in a restaurant in Beijing, the waiter cannot speak mandarin, I don’t think it’s a problem, so far as we can understand each other when ordering the food through the menu. And not only myself, but also I will educate my son, who is now 6 years old, don’t 欺凌弱小/ bully the weak in his whole life, and should 善待身边的每一个人/be kind to others, even if she’s a waitress.

Even though Putonghua is the official language in Guangzhou, undeniably Cantonese is still spoken by a huge segment of the population. As one who works in the service industry there, he/she should be at least fluent in Putonghua as well as Cantonese.

You’re right, then I think people should blame the boss of the restaurant for why he/she employs a waitress with limited Cantonese, instead of 难为/ embarrassing the waitress herself.

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wushijiao

I would agree with the idea that local cultures and languages should be respected and protected (or at least not purposely destroyed), and that the situation is perhaps a bit like areas of the US that are being overwhelmed with Spanish-speakers (although the Chinese dialects are even more threatened than the status of English in the United States, because English-speaking people retain almost all power).

But regarding the original question of northern slang in newspapers, isn't this, to some degree, a nation-wide problem? It is my understanding that newspaper editors are under the control of the Party, and are often rotated throughout the country, much as other people in political posts are. Is this actually the case? :conf

If so, how can local outlets of the mainstream media effectively localize?

If so, whether you are talking about a city in Guangdong, Fujian, Shanghai, Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia or some other dialect/language area, aren't the national policies regarding media use mainly to blame, rather than the individual migrants who, for better or for worse, are just trying to improve their lot in life? :conf

I think all Quest and Ian are saying (this is what I think) is that outsiders who come to a place are expected to respect and adapt to the local culture, speak the local language/dialect and eventually become local, which is the same process taking place in HK where outsiders gradually turn into HK people. Unfortunately this may not be the case for Guangzhou.

I agree with Ian and Quest's sentiments, but at least in Shanghai, I have noticed that many migrants come to Shanghai to make money, but rarely see themselves as "Shanghaiese". And they often don't take very much pride in the city. Perhaps this is the case with Guangzhou.

I can't help but feel that this stems from an authoritarian political structure, in which all decisions are top-down, not from the grassroots up. People often don't seem to be all that invested in their communities, whether locals or not. Also, the Mainland's hukou system reminds people that they are legally not part of the community. For example, many of the migrant workers at the factory that my wife works at don't have legal status in Shanghai (and thus have troubles with health care and their children's education), and so I would doubt that they have much of an incentive to really try to integrate, or learn the local language, after working long shifts running the machines- a job the requires almost no verbal communication in any language or dialect. They only make about 500-900 a month, and so Shanghaiese classes and books might be a bit too expensive (although I met one guy from Anhui who learned Shanghaiese). But generally speaking, legally and socially, the city of Shanghai only wants them for their cheap labor. That is not an ideal state of affairs, of course.

I think making a more fluid hukou system could really help solve a lot of the tensions that unfortunately revolve around the local/waidi issues. But I am sure there would be a lot of technichal problems in fixing that as well.

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Quest
Why do you just waste your time and energy by insulting other people, instead of working hard to have more sons?

studentyoung, could you please point me to when and where I insulted people? I don't remember insulting anyone in this thread, but I certainly felt insulted by many of your sarcasms. All I have said was that someone came up with an insulting article 自恋方言非大度,是陋习, that the migrant numbers are getting higher and higher, and that because they are unassimilating that that is an invasion to the local culture and language, which are facing a very real crisis. I hope that this trend be stopped or reversed, and that'd only be possible if people stopped flocking into Guangzhou. Since that was not possible it was only my wishful thinking. I did not ever say I despise the migrants, I said I would have no problem with them if they respected the locals more and I felt sad that my hometown is being taken over by unassimilating migrants, and everything that I knew as Guangzhou is slowly disappearing.

No matter where they come from, if you, Quest, could do all the farming work, all the construction work, all production work, and all the medical research in genetics and stem cell, etc. that Guangzhou needs, I could ask 张广宁, our mayor, to let all those workers from other places go home and let you pick up all the rest, OK?

studentyoung, the city I live in in the U.S. is Boston, which has a population of 600 thousand and a GDP that's many times Guangzhou's. Guangzhou had 4-5 million natives, I do not think Guangzhou needed the migrants to develop. I would guess that the migrations only pulled down the average salary and increased unemployment rate, if anything. When I was young in Guangzhou, all the street cleaners were natives, all the construction workers were natives, all the bus drivers were natives.

I just can’t understand why a Chinese person can’t speak Putonghua in China mainland? Isn’t it the national language? It is just as a US citizen can’t speak in English in US, but is forced to speak in Spanish.

The simple answer to your question is: China is not linguistically nor culturally homogeneous, and we did not choose the national language. If you decided to live in an adopted hometown, please show your respect and not try to change the local way of life to suit your traditions back home.

You keep making the analogy of me being in the U.S. I think I've done my part as an immigrated citizen in the U.S.. I've learned the language, I live and work with the language, I did not expect anyone in the U.S. to have to speak to me in my native tongue, I am a law abiding citizen, and I would like to think that I am contributing positively to the society by working like the locals and paying all my taxes. If I am still not welcome, and that the majority of the locals demand that I go home, I'd gladly go home, but I am afraid now that I won't have a home to go back to anymore.

studentyoung, I totally failed to follow your logic that those who requested to be respected were insulting those who did not respect them.

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wannabeafreak

In regards to Quest's comment just before this, on the same line of thought thats why I have strict rules in never speaking English in Hong Kong. No money, no talk type policy. Its Cantonese or nothing. I feel this respects the culture, the people and the language. Even if people only see me as their free English tutor, at least I can say I'm trying.

Even though I don't look like a Hong Kong person; I have taken all the possible steps in order to assimilate. I chose to move to Hong Kong, Hong Kong didn't choose me. So I must do in Hong Kong, as Hong Kong people do.

At least in Hong Kong, many Indians master Cantonese. I have respect for these people.

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studentyoung
studentyoung, the city I live in in the U.S. is Boston, which has a population of 600 thousand and a GDP that's many times Guangzhou's. Guangzhou had 4-5 million natives, I do not think Guangzhou needed the migrants to develop. I would guess that the migrations only pulled down the average salary and increased unemployment rate, if anything. When I was young in Guangzhou, all the street cleaners were natives, all the construction workers were natives, all the bus drivers were natives.

If possible, please go back to those good old days you love and miss so much, will you? Of course, if you like, you can pick up all those outsiders’ jobs, and I will ask 张广宁to send those outsiders back home, can you Quest? Nowadays, Guangzhou faces up to a lot of social and economic problems which need both local people and outsiders to cooperate and go through them one by one. Have you ever done anything to help tackle these tough problems in Guangzhou, like aging society, bubbles in real estates, new graduates unemployment?

Guangzhou had 4-5 million natives, I do not think Guangzhou needed the migrants to develop.

I wonder if you have analyzed the current Guangzhou natives’ population structure, their educational level, their true ability and the current industrial structure. You don’t need to draw a conclusion too early whether Guangzhou needs the migrants to develop or not.

studentyoung, could you please point me to when and where I insulted people?

Just so glad to cooperate! Since the beginning you called those outsiders “invaders” and their coming “invasion” on this forum, you insulted outsiders in Guangzhou.

I don't remember insulting anyone in this thread, but I certainly felt insulted by many of your sarcasms.

No, I don’t mean you insulted anyone in this thread, but I just tell you that northerner members feel hurt and insulted by your words. What’s more, didn’t you make me feel insulted by many of your sarcasms? 大家半斤八两啦!不过如果你心平气和D,大家咪舒服D o罗。

All I have said was that someone came up with an insulting article 自恋方言非大度,是陋习, that the migrant numbers are getting higher and higher, and that because they are unassimilating that that is an invasion to the local culture and language, which are facing a very real crisis.

Did you ever put up with any practical idea to save the local culture and language, which are facing a very real crisis (according to your words)? What I can understand so far is that you are just complaining what you call “invasion”!Or it is just what you want to do?

I hope that this trend be stopped or reversed, and that'd only be possible if people stopped flocking into Guangzhou.

I think even outsiders can’t stop flocking into Guangzhou, it doesn’t mean they are invaders. Their basic hope is just to make a living in Guangzhou. Do you mean it is fair to blame on those outsiders just because some wrong population policy made by Chairman Mao long ago?

The simple answer to your question is: China is not linguistically nor culturally homogeneous, and we did not choose the national language.

Yes, you have your right to choose what language you want to use, but have you ever thought of others’ right?

If you decided to live in an adopted hometown, please show your respect and not try to change the local way of life to suit your traditions back home.

I wonder if you have even showed enough tolerance and or helped those outsiders who have been trying to learn the local culture and the local language in Guangzhou?

You keep making the analogy of me being in the U.S. I think I've done my part as an immigrated citizen in the U.S.. I've learned the language, I live and work with the language, I did not expect anyone in the U.S. to have to speak to me in my native tongue, I am a law abiding citizen, and I would like to think that I am contributing positively to the society by working like the locals and paying all my taxes.

Don’t you think a lot of outsiders in Guangzhou are doing what you have been doing for so many years in the U.S.? Without those outsiders’ contribution in Guangzhou, we would not have an advanced subway system so soon, we wouldn’t have enough doctors and nurses and we wouldn’t have enough skilled technicians to help us achieve the adjustment on industrial construction. When you called those outsiders “invaders”, have you ever thought of what they have contributed to Guangzhou? Do you mean 钟南山 is an invader? Can you judge someone as your fried by what he does for you, instead of what language he speaks?

If I am still not welcome, and that the majority of the locals demand that I go home, I'd gladly go home, but I am afraid now that I won't have a home to go back to anymore.

I think no Red Indian dare say that you are not welcome and demand you to go home. 此心安处是吾乡。Where I can feel at ease is my hometown. I feel so sad that you can’t feel at ease in Guangzhou. In order to not to make you homeless, have you ever thought of that it might be practical to help those outsiders become local? Well, if you still don’t agree with me, how about ask Washington Owen if he can help you to sleep for twenty years, like Rip Van Winkle, so that when you wait up again, everything will become as perfect as you wish?

studentyoung, I totally failed to follow your logic that those who requested to be respected were insulting those who did not respect them.

I can tell you, Quest, people don’t respect those who think themselves should be respected, but respect those whom people think deserve to respect. Have you ever thought of how to improve the outsiders’ living conditions so that they can get more interested in Cantonese and Cantonese culture and finally become local people?

As one who works in the service industry there, he/she should be at least fluent in Putonghua as well as Cantonese.

You are right, lan, but does it mean that local people should force others to be fluent in Cantonese all at once? Can’t we local people help others in a kinder way, instead of “force”? I am sure that if the waitress could get the correction and help after work or in a place while no one will notice her, she would feel better. :wink:

Thanks!

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studentyoung
studentyoung, somehow I feel offended by your repeated use of 靓女. Adding "Thanks!" at the end of each of your post does not necessarily make you sound polite.

Sorry for the word “靓女” at first, Skylee, and no “Thanks!” will be added!:mrgreen:

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studentyoung
留翻啖气暖下肚好过...

Sigh~ ~ ! Well, Quest, at least, it seems that you try to calm down and control yourself. OK, I do the same. Could you please still give me some minutes, for I still have some words to tell?

I still remember I once saw a TV program called “影视同期声”. The actor 陈建斌 who played 乔致庸 in a TV play called “乔家大院Qiaos’ Big House” was interviewed. 陈建斌 said, “By learning what kind of person 乔致庸was and what he used his wealth to for those victims who suffered from some Yellow River’s terrible floods , I understand why many Jin businessmen’s big houses in 乔’s age have been destroyed in Cultural Revolution, while his house can escape from it and be well-preserved….” Since Guangzhou is your hometown and mine, can we say it is one of the best ways to save Guangzhou and Guangzhou’s culture from being destroyed by all kinds of unknown disasters in the future, if Guangzhou’s local people can be kind to those outsiders in Guangzhou, and work hard with them to create a harmony society 共建和谐社会?

山西有许多晋商大院,乔家大院是其中保存最为完整的。胡玫在采访中曾透露过,至今,她到山西走访,仍能从当地人口中,了解乔家的口碑和乔致庸的善德。“黄河几次发大水,冲到山西省来,都是乔致庸放钱赈济灾民,乔家开粮发粥,当时广传清政府赈济灾民放粥的口谕,“发放给灾民的粥,毛巾裹起来,再打开时,米不能散,放在碗里,插上筷子不能倒。”事实上,这句话是乔致庸说的。乔家对仆人也特别好,“他们有严格的家规限定,从不打骂仆人,佣人家里有天灾人祸,乔家一定给予钱粮补偿。乔家待邻里也相当厚道,乔家的狗在门口咬了人,家里的大太太、二太太都跑出来和人家道歉。”胡玫导演告诉记者,这是她在走访中,听当地人传颂的,只是这个情节她没有表现在电视剧中,因为害怕观众感觉太假,而这正是当地人真实传颂的乔家善举。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%C7%C7%3B%D6%C2%D3%B9&url=http%3A//www%2Ewikixp%2Ecom/wiki/%E4%B9%94%E8%87%B4%E5%BA%B8&p=936cd41083db12a05bbd9b7d0b4a&user=baidu

No doubt that the population of local Guangzhou people is shrinking, however it is mainly because of the high living cost. Can we say if local Guangzhou people still treat outsiders with hostility and bias, one day our language and culture will finally have the same end like “广陵散”.

世说新语•雅量第六》中关于《广陵散》的记载

嵇中散临刑东市,神气不变。索琴弹之,奏广陵散。曲终,曰:「袁孝尼尝请学此散,吾靳固不与,广陵散于今绝矣!」太学生三千人上书,请以为师,不许。文王亦寻悔焉。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CA%C0%CB%B5%3B%D0%C2%D3%EF%2C%B9%E3%C1%EA%3B%C9%A2&url=http%3A//www%2Efjsnow%2Ecom/blog/user1/435/archives/2005/200673205750%2Ehtml&p=99769a46dd934ea859b3c9237f0d86&user=baidu

译文:

中散大夫嵇康在法场处决时,神态不变,要求给他琴弹,弹奏《广陵散》曲。弹完后说:“袁孝尼曾经请求学这支曲子,我吝惜固执,不肯传给他,《广陵散》从今以后要失传了!”当时,三千名太学生曾上书,请求拜他为师,朝廷不准许。嵇康被杀后,文王司马昭随即也后悔了。

http://cache.baidu.com/c?word=%CA%C0%CB%B5%3B%D0%C2%D3%EF%2C%B9%E3%C1%EA%3B%C9%A2%2C%D2%EB%CE%C4&url=http%3A//bbs%2Exilu%2Ecom/cgi%2Dbin/bbs/view%3Fforum%3Dwave99%26message%3D14447&p=8434c64ad5c819ff57ed9f125b5394&user=baidu

I must confess that I did say a lot of drastic words for all these days, which did make you feel hurt and insulted. Therefore I hope you can accept my sincere apology, though it might be too late.

I am sorry, Quest! I just hope that it is better late than never.

And the only think I regret is that I couldn’t recall the two stories of 乔致庸 and 广陵散 a bit earlier. I supposed I shouldn’t have made Quest, Skylee lan_leeand wannabeafreak feel too bad, if I had had expressed my idea in the way above from the beginning. I feel so sorry for my expression skills.

Just hope this thread can have a happy ending!

Thanks!

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