The Second and Third Tone

[Hero Doug]

I've given myself a bit of a test; I made a list of simple sounds (fa, la, ma, na etc) and given each one a tone (1-4). There were about 35 in total. I would just say the sound and have the native speaker identify which tone I was saying.

I know this is also dependant on the speakers Chinese ability, but I've done it with a few people now and the second and third are the ones I consistantly get wrong.

So I'm wondering if anyone can give a bit of advice on how they say words of the second or third tone.

For the second tone what I've been doing is very slightly lowering my voice at the beginning and raising it, but I think the problem I'm having is I'm not going high enough.

The third tone I'm just lowering my voice from the get go and not bothering to raise it at the end (I remember reading it would raise naturally when finished).

Anyways, I'm greatful for any advice thrown my way.

[againstwind]

I wonder if you can record your pronunciations and upload here.Then we are likely to give you some helpful advice pertinently.

[character]

For the second tone what I've been doing is very slightly lowering my voice at the beginning and raising it, but I think the problem I'm having is I'm not going high enough.

My guess would be the lowering is the problem. The free FSI Chinese course has good descriptions of the tones. http://www.fsi-language-courses.com/Chinese.aspx

[<<恒心>>]

Hero Doug:

My guess would be that the tone Sandhi is messing you up... search around the forums for info on that and review this in whatever text you're using. Memorize the rules for the third tone sandhi and drill it into your soul!

One useful exercise I can think of is to make lists of words with the third tone as the first character, so write a page of common words with 3+1, 3+2, 3+3, 3+4 and 3+neutral tone and practice their proper proninciation with your Chinese friends. Just practice this until you're not fazed by the tone changes and begin to accept the modified thrid tone as natural.

Another big thing to be aware of is that some words like 不 change tones depending on context; 不 changes to a second tone before a fourth tone or a fourth tone that has changed into a neutral tone, so "不是" is actually 2+4, *NOT* 4+4. If you're not aware of these words, it can really mess with your head and make you think you're hearing things!!! Getting those squared away will really help you trust your ears again.

加油！

[Ge-lin]

Language CDs and such will really raise a third tones, almost sounding like a second; but in reality, I would say don't worry about raising it yourself... Say it with a deeper voice. For a fourth, put more power into it, probably the fastest changing tone.

For a second tone, for now you can practice extending it much more dramatic than you need to, and as you get used to it more you can cool it down a bit.

I have found that when first working on my tones, I would move my hand to go along along with my tones, and it seemed to help (that way you don't ignore them)

[againstwind]

For the second tone what I've been doing is very slightly lowering my voice at the beginning and raising it, but I think the problem I'm having is I'm not going high enough.

So, you have probably been aware of the problem, which actually confuses many learners. I guess it is possible that you raised the tone position when you start the 2nd tone, then it would be hard for you to go higher.

Try to practise pronouncing words below precisely:

快来 快回 快球 快摇

冒头 冒牌 冒名

少年 亵渎

(They are 4th-2nd-tone words)

If you can pronounce both two characters correctly, cut the former and keep the latter tone, then you are supposed to get what you want.

[Hero Doug]

againstwind >> I've attached a quick sample. I noticed a bit of a goof when saying (na1).

Pronunciation lesson one they aren't using full words just yet, but sounds such as fa, la, ma, na, ha, sa.

character >> I'll take a look at the resource you posted. I only have time for a reply right now.

<<恒心>> >> If by tone Sandhi you mean going from one tone to another that isn't the problem. I'm just focusing on the individual tones so far.

In the next lesson they introduce combined tones. I noticed that certain combinations change how the tone is changed. I'll hopefully be able to pull the advice I get from here and apply it to the future lessons.

Ge-lin >> I've noticed that when Chinese is taught everyone always seems to exaggerate their pronunciation, which I actually hate because that's not how they actually speak. But I suppose you're right in saying it'll naturally relax itself later.

Basic tones.mp3

[Koneko]

Pretty good! Keep it up!

I think there's slight vocal prolongation but it's not a big issue, maybe you were trying to emphasise the syllables.

K.

[againstwind]

Well done!

1st and 4th tones sounds accurate, no problem. And your 2nd tones are quite good and better than 3rd, except ha2. Just try it again.

Ok, there is a little advice for your 3rd tone. The problem (excuse me) is that your 3rd tone IS NOT LOW ENOUGH. But don't worry. Because of general teaching way, learners are usually taught an exaggerated 3rd tone, marked as 214, lowering firstly and then raising. It will be difficult. Therefore, learners are likely to pay more attention to raising instead of lowering and to pronounce a tone which is like 2nd tone. This also happened to you. It's gratifying, however, you've been aware of it, 'not bothering to raise it at the end'. So lower as posible as you can. While practise comined syllables, as you said, it would raise naturally when finished.

As for na1, I heard. Yours was a little similar to la1. Have another try.

In a word, you did a good job.

[Hero Doug]

Koneko >> Yeah maybe it is a bit prolonged. Since the person recording it had to make it very clear I'm sure they said it slower then usual. I'm sure the speed will pick up as I get better with it.

againstwind >> I'll make sure to go lower, see if it I can improve it.

Thanks for the feedback guys/ladies. I know that listening for tones isn't exactly like listening for words so my mistakes may also lie a bit with the person I was doing the test with.

After I practise it a bit more I'll re-post and see how accurate I can get it.

[Pravit]

I agree with the problem of exaggerated 3rd tone pronunciation. I have noticed it leads to some foreign learners pronouncing words such as 喜欢 or 改变 as xi2huan1 or gai2bian4 because they try to compress the entire "dipping" noise instead of pronouncing it simply as a flat low tone. The 3rd tone, if you're going to pronounce it in the "dipping" way, at its lowest point, should reach to the very bottom of your vocal register(so it sounds almost like you're croaking). However, in normal speech, you should just pronounce it as a flat tone that is lower relative to the syllables in front of and after it.

I also think you should try making a recording of the wordlist againstwind provided, as syllables in isolation are a bit unnatural.

[simonlaing]

Hey Hero Doug,

Et al. I think getting a good teacher and training your ear to hear the difference in the tones so that you can correct your self when you say it wrong is the best way.

And there is a neat free website.

I agree though it is the combination where the tones can be tricky.

http://www.shufawest.us/language/tonedrill.html

http://www.shufawest.us/language/tonedrill.html

yeah try it. It's pretty nifty.

have fun,

Simon Laing

www.chinesetutor.net

[Hero Doug]

Pravit >> I like the suggestion of pronouncing the third tone a flat low tone. It seem's to work well since you can sort of hear the voice dropping as well. I think this idea will come in handy.

And I know that I won't be saying the tones by themselves very much, but I rushed the book the first time so I'm going to do it right this time around. The first lesson is really the only one that has solo tones.

When I get to the lessons with words (each lesson focuses on a sound of pinyin) I'll make againstwinds word list it's own lesson.

simonlaing >> Thanks for the links, I'll be sure to make use of them.

[roddy]

Pravit >> I like the suggestion of pronouncing the third tone a flat low tone. It seem's to work well since you can sort of hear the voice dropping as well. I think this idea will come in handy.

The most valuable thing you are ever likely to read about the third tone comes from

汉语语音教程, by 曹文, BLCU (ISBN: 7-5619-1057-6), which was recommended originally by Carlo way back when the Earth was young.

I seem to have temporarily mislaid my copy, so let me recall, translate and paraphrase all in one. I'm sure I don't have it exactly right, so blame me not 曹文.

The characteristics of the third tone are long, low and flat. In certain cases, the speaker may raise their voice at the end, but this sounds exaggerated and is used for emphasis.

[anonymoose]

I don't have any references, but as far as I understand it, the 3rd tone is only pronounced in its entirety when it is the last syllable in a sentence. Otherwise, in mid sentence, the rising part is cut-off, leaving just the low falling part, which can very nearly be approximated to a low level tone.

[HashiriKata]

It's useful to remember that the changes necessary for, and problems associated with, the 3rd tone are due to the fact that at full value, this tone is twice as long as other tones.

[duaaagiii]

I myself generally pronounce the third tone as a low falling tone, even at the end of a sentence (except, for instance, when imitating people from China). It's typically okay to use a low falling tone when a full third tone is called for, but it is not okay to do the opposite.

[<<恒心>>]

Hero Doug:

The point about the half-third tone being a tone that drops and stays low has already been made, and it's a critical one. But would a good visual help cement it further (or would that be 画蛇添足?) Anyway, for what it's worth, this open source chart via Wikipedia might set it in your mind in another way:

[Hero Doug]

Thanks all for the confirmations.

Roddy, I'll take a look into that book you posted when I'm done the set I'm working on now.

Now I've seen the length of time a tone should be said mentioned a few times. As far as I understand the tones are to be said differently with regards to duration.

Third, first, second, fourth - from longest to quickest.

I also assume the time difference from one to another is just enough to notice there is a time difference.

How accurate is this?