Jump to content
Chinese-Forums
  • Sign Up

Can Westerners become fluent in Chinese?


david1978

Recommended Posts

some Scandinavian members were precise and accurate

Out of all non-English speaking countries in the world, I'd say Scandinavia has the highest level of English. Apart from accent, many Scandinavian people speak English as well as native speakers, and as you pointed out, some even better than native speakers. [This is partly a result of education, partly a result of much media being in English in Scandinavian countries, and partly because most Scandinavian languages (apart from Finnish) belong to the same language family as English, so they aren't all that different.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

anonymoose, at least the TOEFL statistics say that Dutch and Germans score highest. Which is to be expected because English, German and Dutch are part of the same subbranch, namely Western Germanic, while Scandinavian languages are part of Northern Germanic. The difference does show, in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In this forum, the posts by non-English members are generally excellent as well

This is clearly the case. However, I wonder if the non-native English posters on here are a fair representation of their society in general? Does the average Swede or Dane take on what many perceive to be the most difficult language in the world (Chinese), or do we only get highly-educated and motivated individuals who’ve mastered several languages to a high degree? I remember visiting a German Christmas market in the UK a few years ago. I was nothing short of flabbergasted to discover that the lady on the stall couldn’t speak a word of English. With that episode, my preconceived notions disappeared.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[This is partly a result of education, partly a result of much media being in English in Scandinavian countries, and partly because most Scandinavian languages (apart from Finnish) belong to the same language family as English, so they aren't all that different.]

It is probably mainly to do with them not dubbing television (budget reasons). Many programmes are therefore in English (as well as other languages presumably). A lot come from the US which is probably why the US accent seems to be “preferred”. Children seem to speak some English before the subject is formally introduced at school. Same for the Netherlands.

Edited by Scoobyqueen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

most Scandinavian languages (apart from Finnish)

This is off-topic, but interesting nonetheless. Finland is not actually a Scandinavian country, it is counted as a Nordic country together with the Scandinavian countries.

The Scandinavian issue is a bit complex. The Scandinavian peninsula consists of Norway and Sweden. Usually Denmark is counted as well, despite not being on the peninsula, but having obvious cultural, historical and linguistic connections.

Iceland belongs to the same language group, but is not always considered Scandinavian by everyone.

Anyway, several Finns have told me this :D

It is probably mainly to do with them not dubbing television (budget reasons).

I don't think it's necessarily for budget reasons. In some country, people will simply refuse to watch dubbed movies, because they consider them to be stupid.

I belong to this group. Dubbing is for pre-teenage cartoons only. In Germany, you cannot get a French version of Amelie (only the dubbed one), so I didn't watch the movie until very recently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is off-topic, but interesting nonetheless. Finland is not actually a Scandinavian country, it is counted as a Nordic country together with the Scandinavian countries.

Well, if you really want to 钻牛角尖, Finnish is an official minority language of Sweden, so it still counts as a Scandinavian language. :tong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the thread already completely derailed..

The Scandinavian issue is a bit complex. The Scandinavian peninsula consists of Norway and Sweden. Usually Denmark is counted as well, despite not being on the peninsula, but having obvious cultural, historical and linguistic connections.

As you have outlined, this would be the sort of argument you'd make if you want to argue that Finland is not a Scandinavian country. That Finnish is not a Scandinavian language is just plain obvious.

From my experience, the level of Swedish proficiency displayed on this forum is typically demonstrated by less than 5% of Swedes (I think 1-2%: I was doing some field studies when I brought my boyfriend back a couple of years ago). Most Swedes are conversational, but will have a very limited range of vocabulary. It's actually very unfortunate that most Swedish people try to adopt an American accent, since the British accent is (tonally) much closer to Swedish, and would be a lot easier to learn. I have met very few Swedish people speaking English without an easy-to-recognize accent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, gosh, my apologies for having brought up the Scandinavian posters whom I encountered at another forum long ago. I had no inkling how badly those Vikings and Swedes would derail the thread.

As Scoobyqueen pointed out, movies in many countries are dubbed. It's a pity because it takes away the chance for people to get exposure to another language and in a playful manner at that. I've heard James Bond speaking French and i've heard Shakespeare in Italian. Bond just isn't 007 when he politely converses in French.

I'm from the Netherlands and during my childhood a poor command of your native language was considered overwhelming proof that you weren't well educated. It was considered a source of shame. I've known (older) people there who didn't have the chance for much education yet who took great care, and pride, in writing their own language without spelling or horrendous grammar errors. I've brought this value with me to the US and i'm often in shock not only about the awful English by so many Americans but also that they couldn't care less. Then when some of them tell me that they are very good in several foreign languages i have my doubts.

We discussed the other day whether Chinese would overtake English as the number 1 global language. Another argument i have for disagreeing with that premise is that many Westerners, certainly many in the US, are too much the product of a culture that places a premium on multi-tasking and the constant bombardment of two-second sound bites from TV to have the stamina for Chinese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know its two years old, but cant help notice how at the beginning, people are giving David a hard time. Simple question have you or have you not met any westerner that can speak.

I have met 1 person in particular in Liverpool England, though he felt he had alot more to learn, I on the other hand will be happy with the little he knows. Though yes before we get into argument, we all will have the thirst to learn more and more and more. I am African but lived in the west for almost 12 years, the very very few words i can say impressed my Chinese teachers, two of which thought i have been to China. I know less than 30 characters and probabaly less than 100 words. I have done a few classes (2 hrs a wk) and finished Pimsleur UNIT I.

Actually I remember now, there was a guy that walked into our class once and he conversed with my teacher and she was impressed with him 6 months after going to Taiwan. He was so talkative, showy offy, and he even corrected something she wrote on the board. Though i think she pointed out why she chose to write that. Anyways its possible, listen to alot of songs, many narrations and so on to train your ears thus your tongue when you get to learn. The more languages you can speak the faster you can pick up a new one apparently.

Yet to go to China, hoping this december, so yet to meet a westerner that truly does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can attest to the high level of English proficiency in the Scandinavian countries. English has permeated our societies to such an extent that many local products are still advertised using English slogans and buzzwords, mostly I believe, grounded in the instant association of English with "Internationalism" and as something markedly less parochial than either or our (admittedly) very small countries.

Coming from full fluency in both Norwegian and English (roughly equivalent vocabularies), regularly being mistaken for a Brit and generally being completely at ease with both languages, Mandarin was like colliding head first with a massive wall of "otherness". Not only were there precious few cognates (沙发 for sofa, granted, but 雪茄 for cigar?), but the language itself consisted of short, clipped sounds, each with their own tone, stacked together, reciprocally influencing each other, often with hard to pronounce sounds. In short, I found it to be a nightmare to understand.

Though I harboured a small hope I might be able to attain the same level of fluency as in English, I realise now, after a year of university study and half a year in Beijing that this will be much, much harder. While I can pick up English words and idioms much in the same way a whale shark sifts for plankton (that is to say, effortlessly while doing something else), the difficulty of learning anything in Chinese is only surpassed by the effort required to retain and internalise that knowledge. I feel like a sieve.

I haven't heard anyone except DaShan and an older man in a documentary speak with the sort of ease that is indicative of fluency. I agree with those who define fluency by its level of 流畅, as it were. Fluency has very little to do with perfection, aside from the former being a consequence of trying to attain the latter.

Excuse my rambling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...
  • New Members

Hi,

I came across this discussion by chance, and found it interesting.

I am a Scandinavian, and a Chinese speaker. I would give myself a 4+ on the scale provided in one of the first posts. I am quite fluent vis-a-vis pronouncation, although I (I suspect) regularly make mistakes. Chinese is my work language, though, and I use it 10 hours a day or so.

I'll never be 'truly fluent'. I am told that I speak Chinese so that native speakers cannot tell the difference when it comes to tones and pronouncation, but I am painfully aware that my vocabulary is lacking. I am starting to question if it is really possible for a non-native speaker, who did not grow up in China, to become totally fluent. Even Dashan is not 100% I am told.

The question is; is it really necessary to be 100% fluent. I don't think so. I run my business with no problems, I am integrated and I am confident and happy with what I've achieved here. That should be enough, shouldn't it?

On a side note I think foreigners here in China are applauded much more for their efforts to learn Chinese than foreigners in my home country of Denmark. People can sometimes tell that I am foreign (on the phone I mean, if they meet me in person they'll know for sure, hehe), but in 99 cases out of 100 they complement me for my language skills. In Denmark it seems that people focus more on the mistakes foreigners make than the fact that they're actually conveying a meaning and doing it very well.

Just my two fen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Maybe it's impossible to get a 100% native accent. You can see some foreigners on TV who are really close but not 100%. On the other hand I have seen quite a few foreigners who are very advanced in other aspects of Chinese like vocabulary and grammar, maybe even better than some Chinese but to be honest I have never seen a foreigner who can speak Chinese as fluent as a well-educated Chinese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and select your username and password later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Click here to reply. Select text to quote.

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...