muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:02 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:02 AM I'm working on putting it into a typical saying that we would use but this one is one of those ones that just doesn't come so easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:05 AM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:05 AM Dear Muyongshi! Thanks a lot for your help and the hard work!!! Sincerely yours, Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studentyoung Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:33 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:33 AM I've forgotten all the years sacrifices (to the gods)Suddenly I see a swallow flying in my front yard Even birds know how to diligently build their nest So that even mud covered flowers are returned to the nest Thanks you so much for your translation, Muyongshi. I've forgotten all the years sacrifices (to the gods) It is 一年社日都忘了. Please the original words again, Muyongshi. Only one year! Hehe. I think it is a quite good translation from Chinese. But the last sentence, what does it actually mean in Chinese? Does it mean everything turns back to the nature? Something like that? With the connotation that everything eventually becomes void? I see what you mean. In fact, the poet said he had forgotten days for a long time, but finally he saw a sallow flying in his front yard and realized birds were building their nest. By seeing a sallow and those dropped flowers sticking on the mud carried by those birds, he tried to imply that he finally realized that it was spring. 感应道交 众生之感与如来之应互相交流。 http://www2.fodian.net/fodict_online/ the intercommunications between the feelings of all the sentient and the feedbacks of Buddha. So how would you say 打禪機 in this case?老和尚跟我打禪機? The old mock tried to test my Zen wits. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:35 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:35 AM It is 一年社日都忘了. Please the original words again, Muyongshi. Only one year! Actually it is correct I just forgot an apostrophe. All the year's sacrifices. Bad habit from IM- dropping the apostrophes. It works though. Thanks for noticing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:36 AM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:36 AM Hi, Studentyoung! We meet again test my Zen wits ? I doubt if it sounds okay?!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:38 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:38 AM I see what you mean. In fact, the poet said he had forgotten days for a long time, but finally he saw a sallow flying in his front yard and realized birds were building their nest. By seeing a sallow and those dropped flowers sticking on the mud carried by those birds, he tried to imply that he finally realized that it was spring. You're hitting on something here but we have to remember that spring refers to a new year. I think he his hinting at the things he just let go can in this new year be redone. The refrence to the swallow diligently building his nest and him having forgotten his "dues" in a sense are linked. He feels he has been delinquent but it is a new year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:42 AM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:42 AM Yeah, I think I agree with you You're hitting on something here but we have to remember that spring refers to a new year. I think he his hinting at the things he just let go can in this new year be redone. The refrence to the swallow diligently building his nest and him having forgotten his "dues" in a sense are linked. He feels he has been delinquent but it is a new year. You know, the poems are always difficult to understand. Whether you are separting the words or putting it altogether, whether at the back ... it changes the meaning. That's the trick of Chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studentyoung Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:53 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:53 AM I think he his hinting at the things he just let go can in this new year be redone. The refrence to the swallow diligently building his nest and him having forgotten his "dues" in a sense are linked. He feels he has been delinquent but it is a new year. Hehehehehehehehehe. I just can say that I really like your explanation, Muyongshi. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:58 AM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 08:58 AM Well, thank you Studentyoung and Muyongshi! Both of you have been helping me a lot!!! I really appreciate your efforts =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 10:25 AM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 10:25 AM No problem. If you don't mind me asking why are you needing all of these in English? Is it a course you have right now in college or just stuff you are running into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 10:38 PM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 10:38 PM Hi, Muyongshi..... Have you come up with the answer for 禪機 and 打禪機? Studentyoung had suggested me to use "to test the zen wits",and you suggested me to use "allegorical words or gestures", but have you come up other choices... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:07 PM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:07 PM (1) What's the equivalent for 行願? 願力? e.g. 他履行他的行願 : May it be he carries out his "vows" ? But "vows" is just for 願 and the concept of 行(deed)is not included. e.g. 願力: 他的願力不可思議 May I translate it into English as "His vows is incredible (inconceivable)" ? What is the correct translation for 願力? Is it vow or will or will power? (2) The Buddhist terms : 業障, 冤業, 共業, 冤親債主My take on this is : 業障: (Individual) karma 冤業: offensive karma ( Is "offensive" the correct choice?) Because 冤 actually means hostility, hatre, enmity etc. And 冤業 is the karma created when you provoke somebody. For instance, when you kill a person, or you kill an animal, or you create an offense (to someone), then you have created a 冤業 (a karma of hostility of hatre?) But If I write in this way, this doesn't sound professional and it is not a term (you see?) 共業:It is the karma produced by working with other person. It is a joint karma. Is it ok if I translate it as "collective karma"? e.g. You and your friend tell a lie to the teacher. So you and your friend have a 共業 (a collective karma). 冤親債主: The meaning of 冤親 is enemy and 債主 stands for debtors. May I just say the "debtor"? 冤親債主 is a person that you have offended. For example, you kill this dog and this dog becomes your 冤親債主 . You have created an offensive karma with this dog and it is your debtor because you owe to it. (3) 愛河千尺浪, 苦海萬重波, 欲免輪迴苦, 應當稱念彌陀 Is it possible: 愛河千尺浪： The sea of love is like the towering tides 苦海萬重波： The ocean of affliction is like the awesome waves 欲免輪迴苦： If you want to avoid the suffering of samsara 應當稱念彌陀 ：You should recite (the name) of Amitabha Oops!... It's getting harder and harder!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:39 PM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:39 PM Have you come up with the answer for 禪機 and 打禪機? No sorry but I have to agree with you that Studentyoung's version doesn't ring true. (1) What's the equivalent for 行願? 願力?e.g. 他履行他的行願 : May it be he carries out his "vows" ? But "vows" is just for 願 and the concept of 行(deed)is not included. e.g. 願力: 他的願力不可思議 May I translate it into English as "His vows is incredible (inconceivable)" ? What is the correct translation for 願力? Is it vow or will or will power? I think vow works in both instances. Vow already has a meaning of doing something so I do not think that 行 is not included in it. 愿力 I think you could say is the power of of a vow. Like in your instance of above "the power of his vows is incredible/inconceivable" I do not think it would be right to say will or will power if it is in the context of 愿心 共業:It is the karma produced by working with other person. It is a joint karma. Is it ok if I translate it as "collective karma"? e.g. You and your friend tell a lie to the teacher. So you and your friend have a 共業 (a collective karma). I think the "joint karma" you mentioned sounds better in english or maybe even saying "shared karma"- to me this communicates the idea better however with the shared I see a problem arising (I guess both with collective and joint to) as people understanding it as a shared fate. But I don't see away around that. The rest looks good to me at first glance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:44 PM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:44 PM Good morning, Muyongshi!!!! Thanks a lot for your quick reply!!! Woah, so you have waken up so early!! So you haven't come up with new suggestions for 打禪機? This is really a tough term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:47 PM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:47 PM Morning! Yah my bloody cats wouldn't let me sleep. I hate cats! No clue why I got them. Sorry about the 禅机 thing but I will keep thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:51 PM Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:51 PM Alright, Muyongshi!! I don't want to be insisting all the time. I think you should have a break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:54 PM Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 at 11:54 PM No it's fine. I will be very happy if someone can find a very suitable way to translate this. It is a very interesting usage. What I need a break from is cleaning. My mom is coming to visit tonight and I am cleaning and thinking about translating philosophy verses. It's good thinking time. Quit apologizing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muyongshi Posted July 5, 2007 at 12:49 AM Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 at 12:49 AM I've been playing with this idea now for the last couple days but have held off as it is far from the original meaning and Chinese has another word for it but I am considering the cultural difference and trying to find an equivalent. Would parable work in this context? Parable is still about allegorical words (and I think a case could be made for gestures too) as well as it is something that anyone in English would understand. They would not necessarily understand zen wits. By using parable they will understand that an allegorical usage is applied as well as it have a relation to spiritual things. So in the early example: The old monk spoke to me in parables. However in the example of the ear pulling I am not sure that it would work as well but you could say the monk pulled my ear as parable and then...... It is the closet thing I can think of. Otherwise you will have to go with some half asian/english explanation like zen wits. I do realize that parable is 比喻 and 打禅机 is different but I am trying to consider equivalents here. Maybe this will at least spark another train of thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insight Posted July 5, 2007 at 01:33 AM Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 at 01:33 AM Dear Muyongshi, It's one of the terms that I find hard to translate. If I use "parable", it sounds like an "allegory" and this is used just in the speeches. But 禪機can be used in speeches, in the actions, in the look... ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studentyoung Posted July 5, 2007 at 04:45 AM Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 at 04:45 AM If I use "parable", it sounds like an "allegory" and this is used just in the speeches. But 禪機can be used in speeches, in the actions, in the look... How about “Zen hint”? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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