Help with Translating Philosophy Verses Needed

[muyongshi]

God-send, savior, hero, and angel of mercy all work about equally well so take your pick.

I think angel of mercy may be used more in literature so in that sense it would work as well.

[insight]

O.K. Thanks a lot for your advice!! How's the cat?

[muyongshi]

Sleeping...

[HashiriKata]

(I originally posted the following but then, I thought I should let the cat sleep (see the post above ) and so I deleted my post . Unfortunately someone saw me deleting it, so now here it's back: )

Looking at all the baidu hits for "打禅机", it seems that the word is often used derogatively, similar to "It's all Greek to me" or "Mumbo jumbo" in English. I didn't see any real Buddhist or academic web site using the term.

A similar thing is found in English for kōan (according to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan ), but wiki does acknowledge the existence of its original, more serious usage:

English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use kōan to refer to an unanswerable question or a meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a kōan is not meaningless, and teachers often do expect students to present an appropriate response when asked about a kōan.

So, it seems Baidu is not exactly the best base for denying the more serious sense of "打禅机". By the way, I think "打禅机" in this more serious sense can be translated as "to invoke a koan": the teacher invokes a koan, initiates a koan session, etc.

[gato]

So, it seems Baidu is not exactly the best base for denying the more serious sense of "打禅机". By the way, I think "打禅机" in this more serious sense can be translated as "to invoke a koan": the teacher invokes a koan, initiates a koan session, etc.

Well, not the best, but it's cheap.

As I mentioned already, I think the 打 of "打禅机" comes from 打禅杖 (a battle of Zen wits), which sounds like a outsiders' view of Zen practice. I doubt Zen practitioners see themselves as being in a battle when engaging in a koan dialog (at least not openly). Zen, in fact, is probably opposed to competition, as far as I understand it.

A word that is more commonly used by Zen Buddhists themselves is 禅宗对机 (or just 对机), which might be translated as Zen dialog.

[HashiriKata]

I think we perhaps need not associate 打 in 打禅机 with "hit/ fight", we may be able to make better sense of 打禅机. Off hand, I think I've seen 打 attached to all sorts of word-combinations, many of which have no connections with "hit/ fight".

[gato]

Off hand, I think I've seen 打 attached to all sorts of word-combinations, many of which have no connections with "hit/ fight".

Are you thinking of 打赌?

To be fair, it might from this usage:

打

(16)　使用、採用。如：打比喻、打誑語、打官腔。

But see this:

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/24131150.html?fr=qrl3

什么叫打禅机?打机锋?

互问言语互试禅机！又称打禅杖，试禅风，打禅锋！

There's probably no way to prove it, but my bet is that 打 is derived from 打仗.

[insight]

Dear Friends,

I really appreciate your hardwork. I know you are all working very hard on this 禪機 and 打禪機. I have looked up these terms in the dictionaries, and it is very hard to find the explanation of these terms in Chinese, too. See, so it’s even harder to find the translation in English. I have looked for other alternatives, either from Sanksrit or Pali for a similar term. I couldn’t find it. I think this expression comes from Chinese only.

HashiriKata’s quote from Wiki is quite interesting.

English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use kōan to refer to an unanswerable question or a meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a kōan is not meaningless, and teachers often do expect students to present an appropriate response when asked about a kōan.

And he translated the term as:

So, it seems Baidu is not exactly the best base for denying the more serious sense of "打禅机". By the way, I think "打禅机" in this more serious sense can be translated as "to invoke a koan": the teacher invokes a koan, initiates a koan session, etc.

I agree with Gato that his take is not that bad. But, here I would like to suggest something, would it be better if we separate the translation of 公案 and 禅机?

In a certain way, they are similar things, but they are talking from different perspectives. Take for example the koan I menshioned before:

惠能至廣州法性寺，值印宗法師講涅槃經。時有風吹幡動，一僧曰：「風動。」，一僧曰：「幡動。」，議論不已，惠能進曰：「不是風動，不是幡動，仁者心動。」

At that time there were two bhikshus who were discussing the topic of the wind and a flag. One said, "The wind is moving." The other said,"The flag is moving." They argued incessantly. Whai-Nung stepped forward and said, "The wind is not moving, nor is the flag. Your minds, Kind Sirs, are moving."

The whole story is a koan. A koan is a story that is used for people (any people) to chew it, to savor its meaning and to interpret it. The target audience may be any person that comes to know the story (or the dialog, or the attitude or action). However, 打禅机 is to a specific person.

The person that打禅机 to his target audience, he has to 觀機逗教 (this is another term that does not exist in English), which is to instruct his target audience according to his potential and intellect. Consequently, the teacher has to understand where his student’s mind abides because when he打禅机, he has to seize the appropriate moment and the adequate way (either by scolding, slapping, dialog, question, action…) to point out the unenlightened cognition to his student. So the method, the moment and his understanding of his student’s intellect are very important. Sometimes, when he fails to觀機逗教, it is hard to make the student come back to the point again.

I think 打禅机, here the机 stands for 根機 (intellect or potential). There are other meanings for 打 apart from hit, for example : to knit, to play, to gather and create and I consulted a friend, who’s a Chinese professor, she told me that sometimes 打does not have meaning at all. It is just used to emphasis, like in 打賭.

For the moment, nobody has tried to translate this term into English. I guess, it is because it’s too hard. My dearest friends, would you like to work it out with me? (We'll be in the history )

Sincerely yours,

Insight

[insight]

Well...as everybody is sleeping ... (sh)

In whisper.....

how to say... 召魂? 超度(渡)? 劫數? 功夫?

..... none has an answer for 禪機 yet.....

[skylee]

劫數 -> http://hk.iciba.com/search?s=%E5%8A%AB%E6%95%B8

召魂 -> http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=gb2312&bs=%D5%D9%BB%EA&sr=&z=&cl=3&f=8&wd=%D5%D0%BB%EA&ct=1048576

超度 -> http://hk.iciba.com/search?s=%E8%B6%85%E5%BA%A6

禪機 -> http://www.baidu.com/baidu?ie=gb2312&ct=1048576&cl=3&word=%B6U%99C

I think the "打" is like that in "打譬喻" and "打比方", i.e. use / make. See explanation 16 of this webpage.

[insight]

Hi, Skylee

Thanks a lot for the links. I think the translation for 劫數 and 召魂 is okay. But 超度 and 禪機 I am not so sure if it's the mode adequate from the dictionary.

For 禪機, Gato, Hashirikata, Muyongshi, Studentyoung they have suggested nice translations, too. The link you gave me :

禪機 -> http://www.baidu.com/baidu?ie=gb2312...&word=%B6U%99C

I looked at it and it says: Buddhist allegoric words or gestures.

During all these days, we have come up with the following choices:

Zen cues/ to throw a zen cue

Zen hint/ to drop a zen hint

Buddhist allegories

to initiate a koan session

zen wit/ to test the zen wit

allegorical words and gestures

zen parable

I think, I'd just make it simple. May be just vote for it. What do you think?　The one with most votes will be the choice!!! Is that okay?　　

[skylee]

Hi insight. I am not really interested in which is the nicest translation. Usually if people ask a question and if I could offer something I would try to help. It is this simple. It is up to you to decide which of the translations offered by all the nice people here that you would want to use.

[insight]

Thanks a lot. Please don't be offended

[insight]

Hi, I am back!

Does any body have idea of how to say:

1) 內方外圓

2) 昨夜三更夢尋迴 今日方外一衲僧

3) 陰氣

Thank you ^_^