freefall Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:03 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:03 AM Can a native speaker tell me which of the numbers in the sentences below can have 了? Thanks very much! a. 护士放轻(1)脚步屏住(2)气走进(3)病人床前。 b. 我带着所有的文件去见(1)律师。 c. 两个老师争着付(1)钱。 d. 哭着哭着他晕(1)过去。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:08 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:08 AM I would say it is (d). BTW, the nurse in (a) can't 走进病人窗前 (people can't get into a window's front, whatever it means). I suppose it is 走近病人床前. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:09 AM Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:09 AM Haha, no this isn't a homework assignment or anything--I'm interested in each sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gougou Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:13 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 at 10:13 AM 窗前 (people can't get into a window's front, whatever it means)Probably supposed to read 床前。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 24, 2007 at 02:47 PM Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 at 02:47 PM Okay so I might as well cut to the chase. According to my native speaker sources, sentences a, b, and c cannot incorporate 了, but sentence d can. I'm trying to figure out the logic. In these "chain constructions" you have an accompanying verb (or verbs) which may or may not incorporate 着 before the final verb. In some cases the final verb can have 了, for instance 我带着她去看了一部电影。 Sometimes they cannot (sentence b above 我带着所有的文件去见律师。 ) Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinlearner83 Posted July 24, 2007 at 10:24 PM Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 at 10:24 PM Perhaps because there's a person in the "了" sentence (person as the object of 带着). I personally think it's fine without the "了". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 25, 2007 at 12:17 AM Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 12:17 AM Yep, it's fine with or without the 了. But I don't think it's a person as the object that decides whether or not le can occur because take this sentence which is in my grammar book: 他怀着满腔的热情接受了这个任务。 The object here, 满腔的热情, is not a person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted July 25, 2007 at 06:41 AM Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 06:41 AM Sentence a, b and c are all fine to me both with or without 了, but d would sound a bit awkward without it. Can't give and in-depth explaination coz my grammar sucks; however I think it's got to be something to do with the "过去"... Any expert would like to confirm my guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 25, 2007 at 07:00 AM Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 07:00 AM So ANOTHER native speaker said 我带着所有的文件去见了律师 with the le is okay. This is a definite pattern in my study of Chinese. I pick up random sentences from TV or other people and freak out over supposed "contradictions" only to later find out it's all pretty flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashsky Posted July 25, 2007 at 07:55 AM Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 07:55 AM 了 means already, a fact 我带着所有的文件去见了律师 but 我带着所有的文件去见律师 means a action . strongly show a action 见 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted July 25, 2007 at 08:06 AM Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 08:06 AM I agree with xiaocai. I think a, b, c are fine with or without 了. But of course they seem to be slightly different. EDIT: a. 护士放轻(1)脚步屏住(2)气走进(3)病人床前。 I think this sentence can be 护士放轻了脚步屏住了气走近病人床前。 Or, 护士放轻脚步屏住气走近病人床前。 (1), and (2) are ok to have 了 or not. However, (3) cannot use 了 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 25, 2007 at 09:32 AM Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 at 09:32 AM My latest conclusion is that all numbered positions except for a. (1) and (2) can have 了 by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinlearner83 Posted July 26, 2007 at 02:10 AM Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 at 02:10 AM freefall, the example you provided isn't parallel to the one cited. The verb + 着 is used in a much different way with respect to 带/怀. It doesn't necessarily take away from the validity of your point, but it does make it harder to comprehend in that example. 怀 would only seem to take 了 in one circumstance (怀了孩子)whereas 带 could be used in several (I'd consider them in a different class of verbs), just what pops into my head. Anyhow, thanks so much to everyone for pondering these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freefall Posted July 26, 2007 at 03:47 AM Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 at 03:47 AM I think this sentence can be 护士放轻了脚步屏住了气走近病人床前。 Or, 护士放轻脚步屏住气走近病人床前。 (1), and (2) are ok to have 了 or not. However, (3) cannot use 了 . According to several native speakers, (3) can use 了。 chinlearner83, I'm not too sure what you're geting at. But it seems to be a moot point anyway because I was wrong about 我带着所有的文件去见了律师 being incorrect (with that final 了). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coarsec Posted July 27, 2007 at 11:02 AM Report Share Posted July 27, 2007 at 11:02 AM In my opinion, if a verb followed by ''了",it would be considered this action has been finished, while a verb without "了" often means the action is still on going. As following two sentences: 1. 我带着所有的文件去见律师 (I've not met the attorney yet, most probably I'm still on the way to visit him/her currently) 2. 我带着所有的文件去见了律师 (I've met the attorney, maybe I'm back at home now) Both are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and select your username and password later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.