了 after verbs with phrase objects

[freefall]

My grammar book told me that if a verb is followed by a clause object, you can't use 了 after it.

For example:

他决定先去上海。

In this case 先去上海 is the object so you could not say *他决定了先去上海。

That seems all and good except that I have noticed that when people talk they sometimes seem to break this rule:

...给人宰了做菜肴。

我忘记了买东西啦！

Are there certain verbs that can break this rule? Or is it just colloquial...

[skylee]

In this case 先去上海 is the object so you could not say *他决定了先去上海。

I don't think so. I think both 他决定了先去上海 and 他决定先去上海 are perfectly OK. I do not understand why "先去上海 is the object". I think it is simply "He has decided to go to Shanghai first".

Too bad that I am absolutely incapable of explaining Chinese grammar.

[muddy]

Grammar is grammar.

But in our daily life,I think 他决定先去上海。and *他决定了先去上海。are both OK. The meanings of the two setences are the same. But,the first one is more natural and use more frequent.And there is often a short pause after 了 in the second sentence.As a matter of fact,you can understand it that the second one is connected by two sentences

他决定了 and 先去上海. So grammar is right and the sentence is not wrong.

[coarsec]

In my opinion, it depends on whether the verb is a instant verb or continous one. You can add "了" after a instant verb, but for a continous one you can't.

EX: 我决定去上海＝我决定了去上海

Both are correct, 决定 means decide, which is an instant verb

EX: 我希望你不要去上海, you can't say 我希望了你不要去上海

The latter is not correct since 希望 (hope) is an continous verb

[Luobot]

EX: 我希望你不要去上海, you can't say 我希望了你不要去上海

The latter is not correct since 希望 (hope) is an continous verb

So how would you distinguish between the following two sentences:

#1 - I don’t want you to go to Shanghai.

vs.

#2 - I didn’t want you to go to Shanghai.

#1 is a continuous state (e.g., I always won’t want you to go to Shanghai).

#2 is, I guess, “instant” (e.g., I didn’t want you to go but that was then).

[Altair]

I don't think so. I think both 他决定了先去上海 and 他决定先去上海 are perfectly OK. I do not understand why "先去上海 is the object". I think it is simply "He has decided to go to Shanghai first".

If 他决定了先去上海 were said in Cantonese, would you use 了or 咗 to translate Mandarin 了？

[coarsec]

So how would you distinguish between the following two sentences:

#1 - I don’t want you to go to Shanghai.

vs.

#2 - I didn’t want you to go to Shanghai.

I don't think past tense will change a continous verb to a instant one. The #2 sentence means during a certain period in the past 'I didn't want', the action 'didn't want' is still in a coutinous state.

[wai ming]

If 他决定了先去上海 were said in Cantonese, would you use 了or 咗 to translate Mandarin 了？

I guess you mean 嘞 (lak3/laak3) or 咗?

I'm not a native speaker, but I think it should be 咗 in this case.

Going from Mandarin to Cantonese, I used to have trouble knowing when to use 嘞 or 咗.

[coarsec]

If 他决定了先去上海 were said in Cantonese, would you use 了or 咗 to translate Mandarin 了？

I would say 咗 though I'm not a Cantonese speaker.