DEBATE: using LING?

[geek_frappa]

is "ling" (zero) optional for some high numbers?

http://chinese.primezero.com/pzcdz/u.php?search=101010101

is this correct?

[shibo77]

Tone changes:

blue -no change

red -tone change

1) For all numbers, when the unit 十shi2 is followed by a word, any word,

十shi2 >>> 十shi5. But remains unchanged when it is not followed by a word. For example,

20 er4 shi2

22 er4 shi5 er4

2) When 一yi1 goes before a unit word, its tone changes:

一/壹 yi1 one 一yi1 remains unchanged when in isolation;

十/拾shi2 ten 一yi1 remains unchanged before the unit 十/拾shi2 ten;

百/佰bai3 hundred 一yi1 >>> 一yi4;

千/仟qian1 thousand 一yi1 >>> 一yi4;

万/萬wan4 ten-thousand 一yi1 >>> 一yi2;

亿/億yi4 hundred-million 一yi1 >>> 一yi2;

兆 zhao4 trillion 一yi1 >>> 一yi2;

In short:

NO CHANGE

yi1 = yi1 (isolated) 一

yi1 + yi1 = yi1 yi1 (repeated) 一一

yi1(used as ordinal number) + any tone = yi1

一班*, 一时*, 一楼*, 一井*, 一课*

CHANGE

yi1 + 1st tone = yi4 一千, 一般, 一班*, 一井*

yi1 + 2nd tone = yi4 一石, 一头, 一层, 一棵, 一楼*

yi1 + 3rd tone = yi4 一百, 一国, 一时*

yi1 + 4th tone = yi2 一个, 一刻, 一客, 一半, 一课*

For example,

1111 yi4 qian1 yi4 bai3 yi1 shi5 yi1 一千一百一十一

* Notice that before 千qian1 and 百bai3, 一yi1 changes to 一yi4, but before 十shi2 and by itself, it remains unchanged, 一yi1.

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For numbers greater than 100>

Rule 1: If a number ends with one or more zero after two or more nonzero digits, the last unit can be omitted. In other words, the unit for Y in the number XY00 may be omitted.

1200 一千二 yi4 qian1 er4

or 1200 一千二百 yi4 qian1 er4 bai3

Rule 2: If there is a zero or zeroes in a number, a "(零/O) ling2" must be inserted to avoid confusion with a reading by rule 1. In other words, "(零/O) ling2" must be inserted before Y in the number X00Y to avoid confusion with XY00. Remember only one "(零/O) ling2" needs to be inserted, no matter how much zeroes there are.

105 yi4 bai3 ling2 wu3 一百零五

1005 yi4 qian1 ling2 wu3 一千零五

1,0005 yi2 wan4 ling2 wu3 一万零五

1,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0005 yi2 rang4 ling2 wu3 一壤零五

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** Remember the Chinese/East Asian method is to mark the decimal with a dot " . ", and mark the digits with a comma " , ", but it is done with every four digits instead of every three digits.

I hope this helped!

- Shibo

[shibo77]

Remember rule 2? Rule 2, when ,X00Y, or ,0X0Y, or ,X0Y0, now apply this rule only to each section ( ,0000, the four digits between each comma).

101010101

1,0101,0101 mark off every section (every four digits)

1,0101,0101 Remember Rule 2 ,0X0Y, for each section, requires "ling2"

1,0101,0101 Say it

(1*1,0000,0000) = 1,0000,0000 = 1,0000,0000 = 1,xxxx,xxxx

{[(1*100) (ling2) (1)] * 1,0000} = 101,0000 = ,0101,xxxx = 1,0101,xxxx

(1*100) (ling2) (1) = 101 = ,0101 = 1,0101,0101

(一亿)

[(一*百)(零)(一)]*万 <<< Rule 2 ,0X0Y,

(一*百)(零)(一) <<< Rule 2 ,0X0Y,

Remember the tone changes:

一亿一百零一万一百零一 1,0101,0101

yi2yi4, yi4bai3ling2yi1wan4, yi4bai3ling2yi1

Notice that the tone changes of 一yi1 is also applied to each section individually. ,0001, would result in the tone of yi1 unchanged, because in the section that it's in, it is the last number, even though it is followed by a unit that requires a tone change.

For example:

1 yi1

100 yi4 bai3

101 yi4 bai3 ling2 yi1

1,0000 yi2 wan4

100,0000 yi bai3 wan4

101,0000 yi4 bai3 ling2 yi1 wan4

101,0101 yi4 bai3 ling2 yi1 wan4, yi4 bai3 ling2 yi1

I hope this solves your problem!

- Shibo

[geek_frappa]

quick question...

do you really understand LING? or is this from a textbook?

[Quest]

In most cases, it's not optional. I guess you could still be understood if you said 十万二百一, but it sounds VERY strange, and would probably be interpreted as 100,210 instead of 100,201. You should always use 零 -> 十万零二百零一。

[geek_frappa]

just to clarify, when you mean i should always use LING, you mean i should use the character LING? and not the O character?

for example,

http://chinese.primezero.com/pzcdz/u.php?search=8080808080

[shibo77]

I? I said that? Or Quest?

Your "O líng" character is 小写minuscule. They are in a sense, Chinese numbers. The Chinese numbers each have a name, they are the 大写capitals.

O 一 二 三 四 五 六 七 八 九 十

零 壹 贰 叁 肆 伍 陆 柒 捌 玖 拾

Same thing with English

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

zero one two three four five six seven eight nine

One never/rarely sees people writing

"8zero8,8zero8,zero8zero"

Only either "8,080,808,080" or "Eight milliard eighty million eight hundred and eight thousand eighty".

But with a third set of Hindi-Arabic 1, 2, 3... most have abandonned using the capitals 壹, 贰, 叁 except on formal occasions or on checks. But 零 is still used because people see O's curve as "un-Chinese character like".

Indeed, I am typing this at the moment with capital lettre "O"...

But this has passed into the list of Chinese characters. 新华字典 Xinhua Zidian 2003 edition has placed "O" into 口字旁 "kou 'mouth' radical" with one stroke next to 口.

The 80,8080,8080 using O with 一 二 三 四 五 六 七 八 九 十 is perfect.

Use 零 with 壹 贰 叁 肆 伍 陆 柒 捌 玖 拾, to be perfect.

Using 零 with 一 二 三 四 五 六 七 八 九 十, is still correct, but not perfect

-Shibo

[geek_frappa]

ok .. understood... thank you.

[sunyata]

wow, nice explanation, shibo

[shibo77]

Thanks!

-Shibo

[geek_frappa]

wow, nice explanation, shibo

yes, excellent.

thanks again.

[smithsgj]

So the 小寫 Chinese character for 零 is a capital o? Radical? Stroke count?

I find it really irritating when I see a phone number like 三O三五O五八. Am I alone? It seems to me to make about as much sense, typographically, as 8zero8zero8.

Why can't we just say 零 doesn't make the 大寫/小寫 distinction, like 99% of Chinese characters. The reason 1-9 in 大寫 exist is because 一 - 九 are all a bit simple and easy to forge/change: not true of 零.

For 301, you say san bai ling yi. If you wrote that down, would it be 三百O一? Or 三百零一? Just curious.