Constantly mistranslated Chinese words: Aaargh!

[Lu]

A Normal uni teaches 'norms' (standards)

No, a 'normal uni' of the kind we're talking about here does not occupy itself with teaching norms, but with training teachers. Not the same thing.

[shibole]

Meaning that "Go" is not native to the states and neither is xiang qi

All kinds of words aren't native to English, much less the US, yet they get adopted into English anyway. "champagne", "saurkraut", "sabotage", "karate", "sake", etc. I mean nobody is going to argue that you need to translate "karate" as "Japanese boxing" or something because everyone knows what that is and it's in the dictionary. Some people have insisted on translating "dojo" as "school of martial arts" or something, and gotten complaints about that. At least in that case the translation isn't totally inaccurate or misleading but give me a break, it's a standard term among English-speaking people who practice martial arts and it's in the dictionary.

Xiangqi and weiqi aren't "accepted" English terms... you probably won't find them in any English dictionary, but "Chinese chess" and "go" are in relatively common usage and are in at least some dictionaries. Also, if someone is reading about Chinese stuff it seems reasonable to assume they have some idea about Asian culture and will know the term "go", just as someone who is reading about martial arts probably doesn't need to be told what a dojo is over and over again.

[shibole]

Speaking of 棋, can anyone tell me if 下棋 really means "play xiangqi" or does it mean "play xiangqi/weiqi/othello/strategy-boardgame/etc"? I need to find a real dictionary. Seems like none of the online ones that I've tried do a good job with some things I've tried to look up lately.

[fireball9261]

I never know when 白酒 báijiǔ came into Chinese vocabulary. I have never heard it called that way as I grew up in Taiwan and read many Chinese books (old and new). Only when I came to U.S. and met someone from mainland China, I heard this term for the strong alcoholic drinks, like Brandy, etc.

Btw, my brother drinks hard liquor like water since his youth, and many of my dad's friends who were born around early 1900's used to go to Chinese parties with us a lot. I have never heard them say the term, 白酒 báijiǔ, at all. What's the history of this term?

[fireball9261]

Speaking of 棋, can anyone tell me if 下棋 really means "play xiangqi" or does it mean "play xiangqi/weiqi/othello/strategy-boardgame/etc"? I need to find a real dictionary. Seems like none of the online ones that I've tried do a good job with some things I've tried to look up lately.

下棋 originally probably means 下 weiqi because weiqi had longer history than xiangqi. However, we also call play xiangqi or tiaoqi as 下棋 because the verb part of the phrase, 下, means putting down the pieces of the qi 棋. I wouldn't use it for board games that use paper cards as 下棋 because the paper cards are 牌 pai2. Anything to do with playing with the cards are called 玩牌 and not 下棋.

In addition, eventhough Mahjong had game pieces also, we don't call play Mahjong 下棋 either. Because Mahjong is traditionally not considered as in the category of 棋. Nor monopoly types of board games. Othello and backgammon could be considered as 棋 qi; at least, I would use 下棋 for them also.

[fireball9261]

Also, when I first come to California, I generally translated Mu Shu pork as Chinese Burrito to American friends because they know about Burrito, but not Mu Shu pork.

[shibole]

Ok, I guess my understanding of 棋 is pretty good then. I wouldn't expect cards and such to count because those games are mostly luck and don't involve manipulating a pattern on a board. Same with "monopoly" as it's mostly luck, but I didn't expect backgammon to be a "qi" since it uses dice.

[zozzen]

Luck is irrelevant to judge if a board game is "qi". 康乐棋 and 飞行棋 are popular "Qi" that use a dice. Backgammon is also "qi" (西洋双陆棋).

If a board game is played with a small "chess-like pieces" and without cards, it's "qi". But these pieces can come in different shape. Chinese checker that use marbles as gaming pieces is 中國跳棋.

[muyongshi]

玩牌

or 打牌....

[shibole]

Hmm...

Is this 康乐棋? Looks like it uses sticks rather than dice and isn't even any sort of strategy game. It looks like carrom, which is sort of like pool/billiards except with disks that slide rather than balls.

飞行棋 looks like parcheesi

Anyway, if carrom is in fact a "qi" then it sounds like 棋 could be anything with a board and pieces, not even necessarily a "strategy" game.

Now I'm starting to imagine some horrible translation for carrom, calling it some kind of chess

[heifeng]

Oh, and another big one is "Normal University" or "Normal School" for 师范大学/学校. I don't know if there's a really accurate corresponding English term (especially because nowadays these schools do more than just teacher training), but if there is, it almost certainly doesn't contain the world Normal.

This reminded me of the 'experimental schools' attached to the 'normal schools' this is an interesting translation as well, although it makes me think of lab mice and guinea pigs.

[shibole]

I always thought that a school for teaching teachers was just called a "school of education".

[in_lab]

I think translating Chinese citrus names into English is a lost cause. The varieties are just too different.

The 橘子 around here look more like tangelos than the oranges or tangerines that I'm used to seeing.

The 柳丁 look like tangerines, but not really like any tangerines I've seen in America.

Orange is consistenly translated into Chinese as 柳橙, which is good, but I think a lot of Chinese people aren't very clear about what a 柳橙 because you can't buy them at the market, you just see pictures on bottles of orange juice.

[gougou]

I think a lot of Chinese people aren't very clear about what a 柳橙 because you can't buy them at the market

So is there a difference between 柳橙 and 橙子? I'm pretty sure they have oranges at the market I go to.

[imron]

I also see oranges (yes proper oranges) all the time in Beijing.

[shibole]

Regarding "mandarins," in the US at least I see cans labeled "mandarin orange slices" so I'm not sure if calling a mandarin an orange is that incorrect. The term "orange" sounds like it's inclusive of mandarins. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mandarin+orange&x=0&y=0

But I never hear about a tangerine called a "tangerine orange" so I don't know.... I guess maybe "mandarin orange" has gotten used so much that it's started to become an accepted term. And to make things more confusing it sounds like tangerines are a subcategory of mandarins.

[imron]

The term "orange" sounds like it's inclusive of mandarins.

I'm not so sure. The term you linked to was "mandarin orange" rather than "orange" and it's clearly talking about mandarins (see the listed synonyms). Also at least in Australian English mandarins and oranges are distinct fruits.

[fireball9261]

Oh, and another big one is "Normal University" or "Normal School" for 师范大学/学校.

I always translated this University to Teachers' University until I saw their actual translated name one day and was in shock. Every time I used the "Normal University" name, I felt quite abnormal myself.

Also, you guys and gals are confusing me about the oranges and the tangerines. Now, I have trouble with both English and Chinese terms for these two kinds of fruits!

[imron]

Oranges have thick skin that is not easy to peel by hand (compared to a tangerine/mandarin/etc). They also tend to be larger and juicier.

[in_lab]

So is there a difference between 柳橙 and 橙子? I'm pretty sure they have oranges at the market I go to.

Not sure about the first question, I haven't seen anything at the market called a 橙子 (or a 柳橙) strangely enough. At the markets I go to, they have oranges or sorts, but not like the western oranges I'm used to. I once got a navel orange from someone, which I would consider a normal western-style orange, and people called it a 香吉士, even though it wasn't a Sunkist.