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tkoletsis

Greek influence in ancient China Scripting?

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tkoletsis

These inscriptions are from Zhou dynasty and are dated from 1028 to 771 BC.

As a Greek i can recognize almost all the greek alphabet there.

This is very strange because these symbols appear in the greek region at about 800 BC. with the disputed argument - in my opinion - of the phoenician origin of the greek alphabet.

Something does not going well with the ancient scripts considering too many mistakes by archaeologists in translating the linear B script till 1950.

I think we miss something here. I have the suspicion that there is a greek influence here but there are not enough evidences about that.

china-script-1.jpg

I want your opinion.

Pottery writings from Qing Jiang County (1530-1395 BC)

china-scripts-5.gif[/img]

Pottery writings from Gao City and Zheng Zhou Er Li Gang (1620-1595 BC)

china-scripts-6.gif[/img]

china-scripts-8.gif[/img]

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monto

According to date given, I understand you mean Western Zhou Dynasty by "Zhuan dynasty" .

You have timing problem with your assumption.

The latest posible date of the latest inscriptions in Chinese is 771 BC according to your post. This makes us go extreme already.

Your evidence inscription in Greek is of about 800 BC.

So, theoritically there were only about 29 years for you to introduce the symbols from Greece to China. Do you really think it posible in that days?

Symbols should be simple usually, and the number of posible symbols are quite limited. So it would not be surprised if some of them appeared in two languages that have no links.

It may be just a happy coincidence.

I by no means intend to totally deny your assumption.

The evidence you have so far does not favor your theory.

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tkoletsis

You didn't quite understant my syllogism Monto.

My objection is in the timing of the origin of the greek alphabet.

According to my research there are plenty of clues make us suspect that the greek alphabet is thousands of years older than 800 BC.

That justifies in my opinion a greek presence in china region before that date and puts another dimension in the history of civilizations as we know it today.

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roddy

Maybe China invented the Greeks.

Sorry, but it all reminds me of this.

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monto
My objection is in the timing of the origin of the greek alphabet.

According to my research there are plenty of clues make us suspect that the greek alphabet is thousands of years older than 800 BC.

I see.

I took something you want to overthrow as being your evidence.

Any way, you have a work of painstaking.

Good luck.

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m.ellison

Doesn't look like Greek to me at all. Remember you need to look at Greek letters as at 800 BCE or whenever, not the modern forms.

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Quest

If they were inspired by the Greeks, they would have developed an alphabet? And like Roddy said, maybe China invented the Greeks :wink:.

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tkoletsis

For those who have some difficulty in recognizing the greek symbols i've highlighted them in the following images:

china-script-1e.jpg

china-scripts-5e.gif

china-scripts-6e.gif

china-scripts-8e.gif

There is a depiction of the following greek letters:

Alpha

Beta

Gamma

Epsilon

Heta

iota

Kappa

Lamda (upper case)

Lamda (lower case)

Mi (upper case)

Mi (lower case)

Ni

Ksi

Omicron

Ro

Sigma

Tay

Ypsilon

Fi

Xi

Psi

Omega

Digamma

I've not succeeded yet to find the letters Delta, Zita, Thita, Pi but i thing i'll do it in a few days .

As you can see the whole greek alphabet parades in those few chinese pottery and bronze inscriptions.

The possibility of the relation of these symbols with random line and circle shapes is like - falling from the rock of Acropolis and find 1 million euro- as we say in Greece.

Below is a table with the greek alphabet as it is today in the first column, as depicted in the Dipylon Oinochoe (800 BC) in the second column, and from Hymettos sherds in the third column.

alphabet.jpg

.

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trien27

I don't think there's any Greek influence in Chinese. It's just that in ancient times the signs were similar, but that's it. There's nothing else similar about the ancient Chinese characters or Greek alphabet.

.

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m.ellison

You need also to look at the Phoenician alphabets (aleph, beth, gimmel,..) as well; are you disputing a common origin with the eastern Mediterranean alphabets (alpha, beta, gamma,...)? Also remember that omega did not appear until after 400BCE and lower case until late antiquity.

But do you have any evidence other than coincidence?

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realmayo

More interesting: did they use the same tools to write with and materials to write on?

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tkoletsis

And how do you explain this similarity ?

Yangshao-vase.jpg

flat bottomed storage jar

Probably Gansu, Yangshao culture

Neolithic to early Bronze (circa , 3000-1500 BCE)

Buff-colored earthenware ornamented with appliques and black painted decorations

neolithic-vase.jpg

Cycladic spherical jug from with spiral decoration from the same period

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Outofin

Very interesting. Yes I see the similarity. But I’d like to see scripts and potteries from ancient Egypt, Babylon and India. If all other civilizations were different from each other, while only Chinese and Greek were close, then maybe you found something.

If they were all similar, I have to say, we are all descendants of an alien species who visited the earth a million years ago!

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erhu

no specialist knowledge here, but wonder if real mayo might be going in the right direction : similarities maybe reflect technological similarities...using similar kinds of tools to carve on similar kinds of material (or whatever)

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Lu

Circles are a pretty basic shape, I'd say. People getting creative with circles is not that surprising. But I'm not much of an art historian.

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tkoletsis

It hasn't to do with China but the relation is really impressive.

uxmal_governor-palace.jpg

Uxmal Mexico. The Governor's palace.

cycladic-krater.jpg

Cycladic krater from 650 BC. The highlighted meander is exactly the

same as the decorated relief from the governor's palace of Uxmal.

More details and more photos about the subject at http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/Ancient-Greeks-America.html

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m.ellison

Well, I have noticed that some early Chinese neolithic pots (eg in the Hong Kong Museum) look quite like Greek Proto-Geometric and Geometric. But then, there's not too much that you can do with black colour on unglazed clay. It just shows some good designs have been invented several times.

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mr.stinky

i see many similarities between the symbols in these photos, but have not as yet

determined the connection(s).

(the first photo is of architectural details at the kimo theatre in albuquerque, new mexico)

1813_thumb.attach

1814_thumb.attach

1815_thumb.attach

1821_thumb.attach

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