Chinese pronunciation from Japanese point of view

[atitarev]

I have a Japanese language exchange partner who is also learning Chinese. I noticed for Japanese speakers, mastering standard Mandarin accent is much harder than for English or Russian speakers.

She's helping me practice Japanese conversation and I want to help her and find some online audio where you can practice initials and tones. If possible something, which is made for Japanese speakers. Her English is OK but not accent-free.

I also wonder how comprehensible is Japanese accent to Chinese? To me it sounded quite difficult to understand (mind you she is only beginning) - especially initials: sh, zh, l, c, ch, sometimes r (which she has almost mastered).

I am going to New Zealand today, may only check some answers when I am back next week.

[HashiriKata]

If possible something, which is made for Japanese speakers.

As far as pronunciation is concerned, I'm not aware of such a thing, and I don't think it's necessary either.

That Japanese are not very good at pronouncing foreign sounds is a myth (and an indulgence on the part of Japanese themselves).

Provided that they work hard at it and don't wrap foreign sounds inside katakana/hiragana while learning, Japanese can be as good at it as any other.

[roddy]

Doesn't (half-remembering this) Japanese have a smaller set of phonemes than most languages though? I would have thought that would make thing more problematic, as there's less chance of having identical or similar phonemes to the target language.

[Lu]

That Japanese are not very good at pronouncing foreign sounds is a myth

It's not. I also recall that Japanese has fewer morphenes than many other languages (you barely have to open your mouth at all to speak Japanese, it seems) and so it's harder for them than for, say, Russians, who have a lot of morphenes. While I've met some Japanese with good pronounciation, I've also known some with very good Chinese but bad pronounciation. And one who could read but could not speak intellegibly. I suppose most Japanese can learn Chinese as well as any other foreigner, but they would have to spend more effort on the pronounciation.

[HashiriKata]

Japanese have a smaller set of phonemes than most languages though? I would have thought that would make thing more problematic, as there's less chance of having identical or similar phonemes to the target language.

There is some truth in this but not in absolute terms. If one's native language happens to have a wide varieties of sound, it would make it easier to learn the sounds of another language initially. But the fact is, those "same sounds" should all have subtle differences and you'll have to learn them afresh, if you really want to produce accurately those foreign sounds. The similarities you found initially can indeed turn out to be hinderance than help.

A serious problem with many Japanese learners when learning new foreign sounds is, to make it easier to learn, they wrap these foreign sounds in their familiar but limited set of native sounds (in the form of katakana), and therefore in effect stop themselves from learning the new sounds properly and from seeing the new sounds for what they are. They instinctively (or are taught to) cling to the Buddha for help but what they should do in stead is to kill the Buddha after they have met him, metaphorically speaking.

So, once the influence of the native language is put aside, you'll find that all human beings are physiologically capable of producing any sound that another human being can.

[Lu]

A serious problem with many Japanese learners when learning new foreign sounds is, to make it easier to learn, they wrap these foreign sounds in their familiar but limited set of native sounds

Don't we all do that? I know I did. When I first started learning Chinese I wrote down all those sounds in phonetic Dutch: sj, tsj, dz-with-tongue-curled-backwards... Just to be able to sort of reproduce them after class ended. Japanese have the problem of not having much of a tool to write down Chinese sounds, less than other people.

[HashiriKata]

Don't we all do that? I know I did.

We all do that, but in different degree and with different degree of conviction.

(We're getting into cultural behavour here, so please don't ask me the next question (sh)).

[atitarev]

Thank you all!

I am back from my New Zealand trip - managed to prepare for my Chinese exam and practiced only a little with some Chinese and Japanese speakers.

Back on the topic, I see that Japanese learners of foreign languages are really locking themselves into their own set of sounds, quite unlike Chinese, I thought at first, that (judging by the way foreign words are rendered in Chinese), that for Chinese to utter a foreign word and get it right would be extremely difficult, but it seems Chinese are now much more capable to pick up foreign words compared to Japanese people. I must assign to the knowledge of English in China, including the pronunciation. When I spoke to Japanese people speaking English, they would still say "kappuru" for "couple", so how do I I explain the pronunciation of 了 to them, if I hear "re" instead of “le”?

[HashiriKata]

When I spoke to Japanese people speaking English, they would still say "kappuru" for "couple"

This is precisely what I meant above by "wrapping foreign words in katakana", and they need a lot of hard work to break free of the habit.

so how do I I explain the pronunciation of 了 to them, if I hear "re" instead of “le”

Since your friend speaks English, ask her to say clearly "London" vs "Rome" (and not "Rondon" vs "Lome" ). If she can do this, then it'd be easier to tell her that 了 is closer to London than to Rome, and that she could pronounce 了 as if she was going to say the first half of "Learn", but in a very light tone.

[atitarev]

Thanks, that's the problem - even after many years of speaking English she speaks it with a distinct Japanese accent, her R sounds like the English R but the L sounds like the Japanese R in 帰る (kaeru), London sounds like Rondon. The same in Chinese - manages OK the Chinese R (as in 热) but her Chinese L in 来年 sounds exactly like Japanese R in Japanese 来年 (rainen). I guess, she has to fix her English accent as well.

[trien27]

来年 is not used in Chinese, it's purely a Japanese vocabulary word for "next year". Chinese people use "ming 年". Ming = "bright", tomorrow, to understand, etc... Currently, I'm using Linux and am figuring out how to input Chinese. Sorry. I copied and pasted 来年 from Atitarev's post.

[skylee]

来年 is not used in Chinese, it's purely a Japanese vocabulary word for "next year".

I seriously doubt it. In my Chinese vocab, it means the coming year(s). And it can be found in Chinese dictionaries, like this -> http://cdict.giga.net.tw/?q=%A8%D3%A6%7E

[atitarev]

That's right, both are OK. I only wanted to highlight the pronunciation of L in 来年.

来年[來-] láinián n. coming/next year(s) | ∼ zàijiàn. See you next year.

明年 míngnián n. next year

[zhxlier]

I'm a Chinese native speaker trying to learn some Japanese by myself -

I cannot distinguish Japanese R with Chinese L or English L. So there is actually a difference? Then I'm doomed.

Of course, this is another example of how language learners fit foreign language pronunciations into the frames of their own languages...

Thanks, that's the problem - even after many years of speaking English she speaks it with a distinct Japanese accent, her R sounds like the English R but the L sounds like the Japanese R in 帰る (kaeru), London sounds like Rondon. The same in Chinese - manages OK the Chinese R (as in 热) but her Chinese L in 来年 sounds exactly like Japanese R in Japanese 来年 (rainen). I guess, she has to fix her English accent as well.

[atitarev]

I'm a Chinese native speaker trying to learn some Japanese by myself -

I cannot distinguish Japanese R with Chinese L or English L. So there is actually a difference? Then I'm doomed.

Not really, first, there is no misunderstanding, there is no similar sound in Japanese to mix with. Second, the Japanese R is closer to the English/Chinese L than to the English R, let alone Chinese R (initial or final). Japanese teachers recommend, if you can't master the Japanese R, say L instead but avoid the English R, which sounds gross to the Japanese ear.

So, it's better to say "aligatō" (thank you), than "aRigatō" with the English accent ®. English L is the closest approximant from the English-speaker's point of view.

I know when Chinese learn Japanese they never use letter R, unless they use Hepburn Rōmaji. So, usually they romanise Japanese using L, not R, which is not standard.

For the Japanese is much harder to make a difference between "lock" and "rock", which creates funny situation (election/erection) when they speak Engrish. I noticed that for the Chinese it's easier not to mix these sounds L/R.

[foodtarget]

Since your friend speaks English, ask her to say clearly "London" vs "Rome" (and not "Rondon" vs "Lome" ). If she can do this, then it'd be easier to tell her that 了 is closer to London than to Rome, and that she could pronounce 了 as if she was going to say the first half of "Learn", but in a very light tone.

HashiriKata, it seems like you're basically contradicting yourself. You're saying that, at least in this instance, it will be easier to distinguish and imitate the L sound if your native language distinguishes L and R, like English does. You also said that Japanese just need to "work really hard" to perfect their pronunciation. Well if they need to work harder, doesn't that mean it's more difficult for them? I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that it is impossible for Japanese speakers to achieve good Chinese pronunciation (I know a Japanese girl with almost perfect pronunciation). But to say that the phonetic inventory of your native language has no impact on your ability to learn the pronunciation of a foreign language is naive.

As an example, I have recently started learning Korean, and am kind of getting my butt kicked by some Korean sounds. Now I have studied Chinese (obviously) and Japanese, both for several years, and am told that I have very good pronunciation, so it's not that I'm just bad at pronunciation in general. (On a side note, I don't remember ever being explicitly "taught" Japanese pronunciation in class or being made to practice. This is probably due to the fact that almost all of the sounds in Japanese are present in English, and any subtle differences can be figured out through exposure). In Korean, I have found out, their is a distinction between some sounds based on aspiration (the virtually unaspirated single "p" and the more heavily aspirated double "pp", for example). Now both of these sounds (or something similar to them) exist in English, but in English they are variants of the same phoneme, and thus aspiration is not a distinguishing feature in English. As a result, I have been having a very hard time telling these sounds apart when my Korean tutor talks, and making them different when I talk. However, I don't think students of Korean who speak another language in which aspiration is a distinguishing feature (like Thai) would have this problem. This all just reiterates my initial point that your mother tongue affects your pronunciation of a foreign language, and thus can make it more difficult to master.

[atitarev]

I agree with the impact of your mother tongue but HashiriKata was just trying to help, assuming my friend already mastered the English pronunciation.

We actually made some progress last time we spoke, not achieving 100% of the English L but making it much closer.

Unfortunately, a lot of listening (although essential) alone does not always help to fix the pronunciation, some theory behind the sounds is important.

Alveolar lateral flap - Japanese R (ɺ):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_lateral_flap

来年　[rainen]

or

Alveolar tap (not sure if this describes the Japanese R better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_flap

Alveolar lateral approximant - English and Chinese (Mandarin) L:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_lateral_approximant

Letter R (also used in romanisations) has too many phonetic realisations in different languages, dialects or positions in the same language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R

[mitcho]

The Japanese r/l approximant is actually pronounced differently depending on the following vowel, with the tongue moving slightly toward that next sound. Some people say they all sound like English l, some say some sound like English l, some like English r.

As for Japanese speakers learning Chinese or English, however, it's important to note that it's not just an issue of thinking of the sounds in terms of katakana or not being used to pronouncing those distinctions, there's also a difference in what they actually perceive those sounds. That said, Chinese and English l/r are distinct enough that this distinction can be learned with experience.

Being Japanese and American, when I was in first grade my mother was saddened to hear that "he's good at everything, but sometimes his r's and l's are mixed up." I since got over that.

mitcho

[foodtarget]

there's also a difference in what they actually perceive those sounds

Yes, I think this is a fascinating phenomenon, which I am experiencing firsthand as I try to learn Korean. For example, I have a hard time distinguishing between Korean consonants that differ in aspiration (whether or not they are pronounced with a puff of air, like the t in "take"). This is because in English, aspiration is not a distinguishing feature, meaning that it does not make a difference between two phonemes. So while both aspirated and non-aspirated sounds exist, they are merely variants of the same phoneme and changing the aspiration in a word will not change it's meaning. Since whether or not a sound is aspirated depends solely on its position in a word, English speakers do not have to make the conscious decision of whether or not to aspirate, and are thus usually unaware of the difference. My Korean language partner, however, insists that the difference is quite obvious

On the other hand, voicing (whether or not your vocal cords vibrate. p, t, and k are voiceless/no vibration. b, d, and g are voiced) in Korean is like aspiration in English. Voicing does not make the difference between phonemes, and depends almost entirely on the phoneme's position in a word. So a certain Korean letter might be pronounced "p" at the beginning of a word but "b" if it is inside the word. In this case, I can clearly hear the difference, but my language partner insists they are the same

Idk, I just find phonetics extremely interesting. Maybe that's why I'm a linguistics major, haha. But I've only taken a couple classes, so I apologize if I accidentally misused some terminology in my explanations.

[atitarev]

Being Japanese and American, when I was in first grade my mother was saddened to hear that "he's good at everything, but sometimes his r's and l's are mixed up." I since got over that.

Mitcho, could you share your experience how you got over that, please?

Foodtarget, do you find the middle Korean R/L (non-geminated) (e.g. 바람) identical to the Japanese R?