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xuechengfeng

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xuechengfeng

Ok, I'm sure this has been beat to death.. BUT, not with me involved!! So, I guess I'm not extremely familiar with this whole situation.

All I've gotten from it is through a brief history lesson in Chinese literature class, and I was informed there was a separation in retreat routes between the Communists and Nationalists while under siege by the Japanese. Nationalists settled in Taiwan, Communists eventually take control of mainland.

If this is basically the gist of the story, then why does China expect Taiwan to become part of China?

If not, please explain the missing parts, so I can figure out this situation further. :wink:

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No, the separation occured only four years after the japanese retreated.

Taiwan had been ceded to Japan in the 1895 treaty of Shimonoseki.

After the defeat of Japan in 1945, it was returned to the Republic of China (lead by the Guomindang under Chiang Kaishek/Jiang Jieshi)

After the Guomindang had lost the civil war against the communists, they retreated to Taiwan (taking the treasures from the forbidden city with them). They kept China's seat in the UN until 1972, though.

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according to the chinese views, different political parties of one single nation, caught in civil war.

japan is supposed to return all captured lands it took from china, if i remembered correctly, under the terms of san francisco treaty or something. that includes taiwan, penghu and the diaoyu island off okinawa, which was ceded to japan after the sino-japanese war in 1895.

but i also remember the chinese didnt sign the treaty... but anyway, kmt troops did took over the islands from japan, except the diaoyu island.

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xuechengfeng

Ok, my mistake, Yan. Now that little factoid is coming back to me. So, if they retreated to Taiwan, under a time period where a national identity still wasn't thoroughly established, do you see a problem with Taiwan being separate from China?

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So, if they retreated to Taiwan, under a time period where a national identity still wasn't thoroughly established, do you see a problem with Taiwan being separate from China?

??? the national identity was established 2000 years ago.

After the collapse of the Qing monarchy, the Republic of China was established in 1912. Between the periods 1912-1949, the KMT was more or less the single ruling party in China.

Taiwan was formerly ceded to Japan in 1895, but after the Japanese were defeated in 1945, it was returned to China. At that time the KMT till presided over China, but the communists were gaining power. Finally in 1949, KMT forces lost the civil war and fled to Taiwan, and so the Republic of China continued in Taiwan until this day. The People's Republic of China was established by the communists party in 1949.

The difference between the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China has been the difference between the two political parties. Until recently, both sides saw themselves as the sole ruler of all of China. Now, Taiwan is forming its own sense of identity, and the mainland is unwilling to let it go.

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Ok, my mistake, Yan. Now that little factoid is coming back to me. So, if they retreated to Taiwan, under a time period where a national identity still wasn't thoroughly established, do you see a problem with Taiwan being separate from China?
I don't have a problem with that. I am for self-determination, but I am neither chinese nor from Taiwan ;)

Anyway, I think one shouldn't forget that Taiwan's government wasn't seperatist at all until maybe 1990. Before that, the only difference to the PRC's stance was that the Guomindang wanted reunification on their terms, not on those of the CCP :D . I think it took them until 1996 to even accept the independence of Outer Mongolia, so one has to admit that the Taiwanese government (at least under the Guomindang dictatorship) itself have given quite a bad example to the mainland.

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I don't have a problem with that. I am for self-determination

Speaking of self-determination, that word reminds me of the Chinese thinker 王夫之, who lived during the transition years of the Ming and Qing dynasties, and is the father of modern Chinese nationalism. He was a Ming loyalist and fiercely opposed to the Manchu takeover of China. The reason is that he believed that each ethnic group is entitled to its own self-determination. According to him, the Han should leave the Manchus alone and vice versa. Since the Manchus are a distinct, separate ethnic group apart from the Han, the Manchus should stay in their own territory and are entitled to their own sovereignty, while the Han should be entitled to their's.

Mao was said to be a great admirer of 王夫之, who like him also came from Hunan province.

So if one is to follow 王夫之's line of thinking, the Taiwanese in Taiwan are entitled to their own self-determination. But from another viewpoint Taiwan has been a part of China dating back to Kangxi's reign.

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i think the among the worst things mao did was to change the title from roc to prc. if it had been the same, there'll be no arguments for taiwan to opt for independent. u dont see america changing its title when different parties got elected, right? he still had the 改朝换代 ideology...

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xuechengfeng

Quest:

I suppose a better word choice I was looking for for the national political identity.

So, did the KMT flee to Taiwan while the CCP hadn't even declared the Mainland's national politics as Communist, or was this after?

If it was before, did they set up and impose their politics into this Taiwanese land?

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The PRC was declared in Beijing on October 1st, 1949. Chiang Kai Shek fled from Nanjing to Taiwan in December of the same year.

The Kuomindang had ruled Taiwan since October 1945, and they had imposed their politics there (e.g. google for february 28 incident).

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xuechengfeng

Then I don't understand if Taiwan had a quasi-established Nationalist government, why does China feel that it should be part of the PR?

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its a matter of 'line of succession'... the roc got the land and ruling power over china from the qing govt, the prc got it from the roc. they say that political difference is no excuse for separation... just like a republican state is not given the right to detach itself from the federation. to them taiwan is part of the country, but being run by ppl with different political stands. i think(i could be wrong) the state of civil war is still not removed, so they are still considered at war with each other.

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