Pronunciation of Shanghainese

[taibeihong]

Shanghainese has a glottal stop where older dialects had p, t and k, like in "va?", "chi?" and "o?". But is the glottal stop always pronounced? why can´t I hear it? it kind of would sound as if the next consonant is longer, but that doesn't seem to happen all the time... I speak some Lebanese Arabic, which uses even more glottal stops than Classical Arabic, and it is always clearly heard (and which means I can actually hear one if it's present).

What about voiced initials like b, d, g, j and z? I have a tape where one speaker would seem to pronounce them as real voiced initials, like French and Spanish, yet the second speaker pronounces them kind of unvoiced. Is there a change going on in the dialect?

[ala]

There is a full glottal stop at words that end with a glottal stop (although sometimes slurred away in a sentence). There is a very weak to no glottal stop for Rusheng characters in the middle of the word, for these words it's more like a brief pronunciation of the consonant that follows, like a faster version of the Japanese double consonant. For example: 膝盖 shiq + ke ==> Shikke

About voicing, because of pinyin and Mandarin influence, a lot of Shanghainese speaker mistakenly think that the voiced b should be pronounced like the Mandarin pinyin b (which is voiceless). A Shanghainese would pronounce VCD or DVD with the Pinyin di (voiceless), when in fact Shanghainese has the exact voiced d sound found in English. English's voiced consonants aren't as voiced as say French or Russian, and for the most part, the Shanghainese voiced consonants are quite close to that of English. The voicing in Shanghainese tend to be very strong and full when speaking at a low to medium volume (above whispering), and nearly voiceless when shouting. But the voiced/voiceless distinction becomes clear for most Shanghainese speakers, once they are informed of the 3-way distinction (and other info like voicing = the lips vibrating on sheet of paper, etc). Unfortunately, there is no general education at all about Shanghainese and pinyin is so misleading (and with CCTV anchors saying B股 as [pi ku])

[Altair]

In addition to or instead of voicing, I have heard that Shanghainese has "murmured" consonants. Ala, I think I recall you also referring to some such phenomenon occurring over the full length of a syllable. Are these separate features of Shanghainese?

Ala, can you also repost some links to Shanghainese sites showing syllable pronunciations. I can't seem to find the previous ones at the moment and would like to listen for myself.

[taibeihong]

Ala, remember you posted a link to some romanisation schemes for Shanghainese?

In the last column, the romanisation for what would be the french sound "eu" is "oü". Is it just a peculiar way of writing it or does it reflect a newer pronunciation? Aq and eq (again, in the french romanisation) appear both as "ak"; is the sound then more like "a" or more like the english "schwa sound"? Finally, the syllabic ng appears as simply "n"; is "five" in the new style pronunciation simply "n" instead of "ng"?

I also notice than in your posts you write "I" as "wo" instead of "ngu", is the "ng" initial disappearing as it is in Hong Kong Cantonese? is it a tendency or how widespeard is it?

Another thing, I remember a (young female shanghainese) friend of mine used a rather close vowel in "three", saying something like "se" more than "sE", and I could swear I almost heard some kind of faint palatal glide after the "s". Can you explain this, ala?

Finally, what is the quality of the "l"? You prefer representing it with "r". Is it like a Japanese l/r that fluctuates between both, is it becoming like an Italian or Spanish (sigly trilled) r sound or is it still more like an l sound?

[ala]

is the sound then more like "a" or more like the english "schwa sound"?

It's an open schwa, the upside down a in IPA. It's close to the schwa sound, except with slightly more a character. Like the German er in besser. And sometimes similar to the vowel in English "up", which is typically an upside down V. But variation is huge among speakers, and they don't impede understanding. In any case, the eq and aq have muddled, one can't change the meaning by pronouncing in either way.

I also notice than in your posts you write "I" as "wo" instead of "ngu", is the "ng" initial disappearing as it is in Hong Kong Cantonese? is it a tendency or how widespeard is it?

The ngu is pretty much not used by people born after the 80's. Although they could certainly understand ngu. For the most part the ng initial is becoming n (外 = nga --> na); ngu --> wo is a special case because of Subei 苏北 accent (many Shanghainese are from Subei area). Nguo (Ngo, Ngau) is also used by some who think that 我 is orthodoxically pronounced like this (they are wrong). Also some people pronounce 我 as in 吴 (wu). But the dominant trend for 我 is wo (by wo I'm referring to the "voiced" /U/ and /o/ cross; not the Mandarin wo), and for 俄 is nu or vu.

Finally, what is the quality of the "l"? You prefer representing it with "r". Is it like a Japanese l/r that fluctuates between both, is it becoming like an Italian or Spanish (sigly trilled) r sound or is it still more like an l sound?

It's alveolar lateral flap. Like the Japanese r except it's lateral (some Japanese dialects have it lateral as well). It's believed the Japanese r came from Wu dialects, as prior to Chinese contact, Japanese did not have the r in their phonology. In Shanghainese the flap is most obvious for 来, or in a phrase like: 勒了马路浪 （在马路上） or 十六 Some suburbs of Shanghai have the flap even more pronounced. No trills. I used r spelling to emphasize this very unique characteristic of many Wu dialects (one can reason flapping = r, one can also reason lateral to be = l).

Another thing, I remember a (young female shanghainese) friend of mine used a rather close vowel in "three", saying something like "se" more than "sE", and I could swear I almost heard some kind of faint palatal glide after the "s".

三 three is a high pitch (53) character. It tends to be pronounced more closed in isolation. Girls can also palatize slightly the s (guys never). If you told her to pronounce 伞 or 十三点, it would be closer to sE. It is even more open in 谈 dE as in (谈朋友), because of the voiced d.

[taibeihong]

What about the voiced onset in words? When I hear “nguäch”, “teäch” and others that end in “äch”, I can clearly hear the voiced onset, almost like the Spanish “g” in “agua” or the Greek “gamma”. BUT, when I hear other words, like “zanheeo”, which is composed of zan+he+ë+ö, I can’t hear anything between “he”and “ë”, and between “ë” and “ö”. Does it disappear altogether? But why is it pronounced with words that contain “äch”? (note, I’m using tapes of a course I bought in Shanghai in 2000).

[ala]

But why is it pronounced with words that contain “äch”? (note, I’m using tapes of a course I bought in Shanghai in 2000).

This has to do with 新派、老派 variation for the pronunciation of one particular character which is found in adjective and genitive formations:

很老的老派： 个 is pronounced as /ku/ or /k@?/

老派： 个 is pronounced as /g@?/

中派： 个 is pronounced either as /g@?/ or /curved-h@?/ (the latter more popular)

新派： 个 is always pronounced as /curved-h open-schwa ?/ (äch)

Your ears are good, the speaker is probably 中派 (40-60 yrs old) who pronounces the 个 as /g@?/, so you indeed heard the voiced consonant onset.

[taibeihong]

actually, what I hear so clearly in words like teäch and nguäch is the "curved h", which is very similar to the fricative g of Spanish and Greek (not the same, of course, but very similar). But my question was, when I hear the tapes, that "curved h" sound is very clear in those words that end in äch, but I can't hear it AT ALL in medial position in words like "zanheëö" or in phrases like "ngu öch kan zanheëö". The course I'm using is "Study a bit of Shanghai dialect", by 上海交通大学出版社, printed in 1996.

[danteferry]

Hi! I have seven (7) Catholic prayer texts needed to be pronounced on tape, in Shanghainese & other Chinese languages. I can e-mail the texts as attachments. Anybody willing to help me? - it is for a compilation of prayers in different languages. Thank you! - Dante Ferry, Manila, Philippines