Chinese pregnancy beliefs

[studentyoung]

Sorry, I don't have enough time today. Maybe tomorrow, I will read your post.

That is too bad.

What do you mean "too bad"? Surely it isn't the end of the world, right?

Thanks!

[shanghaikai]

Although I'm of the camp that believes mobiles and TVs don't emit enough radiation to be harmful' date=' on a real-life level your analogy fails.

If the premises are false then fine. If the premises simply can't be proven then one has to take a gamble. How difficult is it to ensure that new mothers and babies are not sat too close to mobile phones and TVs? If it's easy, then one makes a risk assessment and decides whether to do this (pending the proof or dis-proof of your premises).[/quote']

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reasoning behind these maxims. I just don't think all of them are sufficiently valid or should be broadly applied to all "Chinese" women...unless studentyoung is proposing that "Chinese" women are so stupid, unlike Western women, that they need such pithy rules forbidding them to cut their nails after birth for fear of self-inflicted injury.

Moreover, my contention here is with studentyoung's overall approach to promoting and defending these practices for Chinese women, and not necessarily each specific one. Some of them are entirely reasonable, but she's certainly said quite a few ridiculous things. Now, you're right and I never disputed that life is rarely black and white and that people don't ultimately make their own ascertations of risk. However, this is an academic discussion/debate where the original poster has sought scientific proof to support continued adherence to these maxims. The premises offered by studentyoung has often failed to meet this burden of proof.

What do you mean "too bad"? Surely it isn't the end of the world, right?

No, it is "too bad" because while you seem to have the confidence that you're authoritatively right in this subject, you do not seem to recognize the errors in your logic or acknowledge the valid objections of your peers. This makes fruitful and progressive debate and discussion very difficult.

[studentyoung]

Wait...WHAT? So the advice against cutting your nails is because they're afraid women will get a cramp and suddenly hurt themselves? This is ridiculous. Cramps can be caused by any number of reasons, including simple inactivity or lack of hydration. Regardless, I'd love to see the clinical records that show that there is a statistically meaningful amount of pregnant women who have increased incidences of severe self-inflicted nail-clipper or scissor injuries. Then, I'd like for you to explain that these women's cramp-induced nail-clipper and scissor injuries are scientifically more prone to infection. Then, I'd like for you to show me how simple medications used to treat minor injuries (caused by nail-clippers no less) might harmfully affect the baby that is being breast-fed.

I think it might be good for you to go and check the relative info by yourself, if you are not convinced.

Are you supposed to feed your newborn baby vegetable juice?

I think you don’t know that vegetable juice is advised by doctors to add in a baby’s daily diet, to give a baby more vitamins and help he / she gets used to the taste of vegetable. It quite commonly practices in a Chinese family. Do you understand?

And we Chinese people take a lot of vegetable in our daily diet. Have you even considered this factor? Even if it was not vegetable juice, but just vegetable, nitrite that exists in non-freshly cooked food can still do harm to a new mother and her new born baby. The case in my previous post is not a rare one at all. If you don’t believe my words, you can go and consult a local gynecologist in Shanghai.

And through your words, I realize that you have little knowledge on how Chinese women take care of their babies.

No, it is "too bad" because while you seem to have the confidence that you're authoritatively right in this subject, you do not seem to recognize the errors in your logic or acknowledge the valid objections of your peers. This makes fruitful and progressive debate and discussion very difficult.

I think the problem is the logic is well accepted by Chinese people not necessarily accepted by westerners. I think that I have the confidence which is base on the understanding about the culture and reality in my mother land.

Yes, it is never been proven. But can you guarantee there is no such radiation and no harmful effect on human being, especially a lying-in woman and her new born baby? Can’t she take precautions just because she's not so sure on something which might hurt her?

I still don’t understand why it is unreasonable. What’s more I think a doctor must be responsible for his patient’s health. If there is something even a doctor can’t be sure, it is acceptable for him to advice his patient to avoid this thing or at least take some .

PREMISE: A dog I am not familiar with has bitten me.

PREMISE: I suspect this dog has rabies.

PREMISE: Rabies can be vaccinated.

CONCLUSION: I should go see a doctor to possibly get a rabies vaccination as a precaution.

This is a good and valid deductive argument. If the premises are all true, then the conclusion must be true.

I want to tell you that is the exact case in reality. But I am sure that you have no experience in it. I know this, because my friend was bitten by dogs two times, and he got vaccine each time. In real life, a doctor can’t waist any time to prove whether the dog has rabies or not. All he must do is to race against time and try his best to safe your life, because this is his responsibility. Do you understand?

Thanks!

[gougou]

I think a lot of the arguing in this thread comes from people having different perceptions of risk and how much you should do to avoid it. Maybe, to come from a different perspective: who thinks that a woman will be worse off when following those rules than if she didn't?

[Lu]

who thinks that a woman will be worse off when following those rules than if she didn't?

Depends on the woman, I think.

If she doesn't mind being really sloppy for some time, she won't care about not washing or combing her hair or plucking her eyebrows, but getting all greasy and tangled up hair might make her feel bad if she is a person who puts a lot of value on her looks.

Staying at home and being cared for by friends, relatives and hubby is not so bad, but if these are not around the woman might easily get very bored without tv and phone, and the baby asleep most of the time.

Not cutting one's nails might actually be bad, as with long outgrown nails it's easier to badly scratch oneself, and others, and baby skin is rather thin, I believe.

Not eating certain kinds of fruit won't harm, as long as she makes sure she eats other fruits. Same with food.

If she doesn't see the need of all those rules, the woman might get annoyed and stressed from following them. If she does see the need, it might make her feel better that she is doing everything she possibly can to get herself and the baby off on a good start.

[shanghaikai]

I think it might be good for you to go and check the relative info by yourself, if you are not convinced.

I think it might be good for you to PROVIDE that information (the statistics showing that women are so significantly more likely to injure themselves with scissors and nail-clippers in the month following childbirth that it should be a RULE that they do not cut their nails during that time. After all, it is you who is making this claim and thus the burden of proof is upon you. I, on the other hand, do not feel women who are "Chinese and thus have weaker constitutions" results in them being at increased risk of foolishly hurting themselves while cutting their nails in the month after birth.

I think you don’t know that vegetable juice is advised by doctors to add in a baby’s daily diet, to give a baby more vitamins and help he / she gets used to the taste of vegetable.

I think you missed the point of my question. I was asking whether it is advisable to feed a newborn baby vegetable juice and when is it advisable. The reason I asked that was because your anecdote of what you claim to have read in a magazine did not state how old the baby was. I was curious as to why the mother was feeding her baby vegetable juice instead of breastmilk or milk formula. As it turns out, babies under 6 months should only be consuming milk. After six months, vegetable juice is not necessary either, but may be given (but no more than ~4 ounces a day). Even then, milk should be most of what the child drinks during the first year of the child's life.

It quite commonly practices in a Chinese family. Do you understand?

See above.

And we Chinese people take a lot of vegetable in our daily diet. Have you even considered this factor?

No, because it is irrelevant. What does Chinese people having lots of vegetables in their daily diet have anything to do with the propriety of feeding your infant vegetable juice instead of breastmilk or specially formulated baby milk formula?

Even if it was not vegetable juice' date=' but just vegetable, nitrite that exists in non-freshly cooked food can still do harm to a new mother and her new born baby. The case in my previous post is not a rare one at all. If you don’t believe my words, you can go and consult a local gynecologist in Shanghai.

And through your words, I realize that you have little knowledge on how Chinese women take care of their babies.[/quote']

Let me ask you this, did I ever question "nitrate-poisoning?" No, I questioned whether you're supposed to feed a baby vegetable juice. A simple "yes" or "no" would've sufficed. I also never questioned the benefits of eating fresh foods.

I think the problem is the logic is well accepted by Chinese people not necessarily accepted by westerners. I think that I have the confidence which is base on the understanding about the culture and reality in my mother land.

Another logical fallacy: Appeal to popularity and common practice. Just because a lot of Chinese people have accepted these practices does not automatically make it logical. A lot of people (including Chinese people) simply take certain things as "fact" or "truth" or "acceptable" but when they are questioned or challenged to explain why they accept these things as "fact" or "truth," they are unable to because they do not actually know or understand "why."

"Logic" should be "logical" to anyone and everyone. Logic is the principles of correct reasoning. Are you saying Chinese people and Western people are scientifically different in how they "reason?"

People in this thread have challenged you to explain "why" for these beliefs but the one common response you keep giving us is "we're Chinese, we're different, you're western, you don't understand, you don't now our culture and reality, and as long as we believe it is true then it must be true." muyongshi already offered you to say that a lot of these practices are rooted in cultural differences. You insisted that they are not cultural but scientific. The one loop-hole you give yourself is that these rules are at least[/] "scientifically" true for "Chinese" women and anyone who is not Chinese therefore has no right or authority or grounds to argue with you, a "Chinese" person who understands your "culture and reality."

Next time you feel like questioning "non-Chinese" about "non-Chinese" matters, be sure to remind yourself that you do not understand non-Chinese culture and reality and thus, you're probably wrong and have no reason to question.

If you don't like how that sounds, then please stop responding to us with "you're wrong because you don't understand Chinese culture and reality." That is nonsense. Do not confuse "understanding" with "accepting." Just because I refuse to accept one tradition found in Chinese culture (because there is inadequate proof of its continued applicability) does not mean I do not understand Chinese culture as a whole. Moreover, I can fully understand that you choose to continue to practice these traditions but that does not mean I have to accept that they are scientifically valid just because you say so.

I want to tell you that is the exact case in reality. But I am sure that you have no experience in it. I know this, because my friend was bitten by dogs two times, and he got vaccine each time. In real life, a doctor can’t waist any time to prove whether the dog has rabies or not. All he must do is to race against time and try his best to safe your life, because this is his responsibility. Do you understand?

Uh...thanks, I know that is the "exact case in reality." After all, I was the one who deconstructed the argument for rabies vaccinations and showed how it is a valid conclusion based upon true premises. I think you completely failed to understand why I did that. I was trying to show you how the argument for rabies vaccination differs from your radiation argument. I was showing how the former was valid but the latter is not. I fully understood what you were saying (unless what you write is unable to communicate what you think), but I'm fairly certain you do not understand what I'm saying judging by many of your responses.

[shanghaikai]

I think a lot of the arguing in this thread comes from people having different perceptions of risk and how much you should do to avoid it.

For me, this is not why I am arguing. I'm fine with a person doing as much as is appropriate for their own perception of risk. I'm arguing with studentyoung because she seems to insist upon the validity of these rules for Chinese women because all Chinese women in China are different than western women. She also insists that you have to be Chinese to understand and if you were Chinese, you probably wouldn't even question these rules.

Maybe, to come from a different perspective: who thinks that a woman will be worse off when following those rules than if she didn't?

I think some of these rules, if followed too strictly or followed when a better alternative exists, could actually increase the risk of harm to the woman. For example, some of the personal hygeine maxims could result in increased bacterial build-up, especially when the water so many Chinese women use these days are not likely to give water-born illnesses. Fruits can be a good source of nutrition and fiber and many foods actually lose some of their nutritional content when cooked. Given how much nutrient-poor starches like rice and noodles Chinese people consume on a daily basis, I'm not certain forbidding fruits is exactly a good idea.

Maybe studentyoung can take a look at a quick guide "Western" people have for new mothers and tell us which parts don't apply to "Chinese" women because they're significantly different (weaker constitutions and a different Chinese "reality"):

http://www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/newborn/newmom.html

http://health.howstuffworks.com/postpartum-nutrition-guidelines-ga1.htm

(lots of fun stuff like "constipation" and how fruits and raw vegetables help, or stuff like how meals that are quick and require less preparation is healthy for a new mother that doesn't have the time or energy due to taking care of a needy infant that wakes up every 3 hours).

However, as Lu said, if someone takes these rules to a certain mental level of seriousness, adherence or non-adherence may result in some silly mental problems that could be harmful overall.

[Lu]

I'm not certain forbidding fruits is exactly a good idea.

I don't think all fruits were forbidden, only the 'cold' ones, 'cold' not in the sense of just out of the fridge, but in the TCM sense. Which would leave plenty of 'warm' fruit that the new mother can eat.

[muyongshi]

Studentyoung,

I have a quick related yet unrelated question for you...

I was watching a TV show and the lady lost her baby in childbirth. Would she still 坐月子? Got me curious. Thanks!

[studentyoung]

I was watching a TV show and the lady lost her baby in childbirth. Would she still 坐月子? Got me curious. Thanks!

I think she still needed to 坐月子, i.e. she still needed to get enough rest and enough nutrition to recover, though she didn’t need to take care of her baby.啊，不过她没了孩子啊，她的丈夫和家人是不是还愿意对她这么好啊，这就难说了。

As far as I understand 坐月子 is some period for a new mother to get enough rest and nutrition to recover, to free herself from hard labor so that she can focus all her energy on her new born baby, to be protected in a relative safe, quiet and stable environment to avoid all likely hurt.

I don't think all fruits were forbidden, only the 'cold' ones, 'cold' not in the sense of just out of the fridge, but in the TCM sense. Which would leave plenty of 'warm' fruit that the new mother can eat.

Indeed. Some fruit and food can help body improve blood circulation and stimulate principle metabolism, which is called as “warm” or even “hot”, such as hot chilly, ginger, date, etc. Some fruit and food can slow down blood circulation, hold down digestive enzymes (抑制消化酶) or some other enzymes and hormones, such as pear, banana, watermelon etc.

In TCM, it believes that a woman just after having a baby must have lost a lot of energy, so she is weak and tired. The enzymes and hormones in her body mustn’t be in the same level as usual. At this time, we can offer some food, fruit or even health care product, which can improve blood circulation, work up an appetite, and add more nutrition to help her recover.

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

I think she still needed to 坐月子, i.e. she still needed to get enough rest and enough nutrition to recover, though she didn’t need to take care of her baby.啊，不过她没了孩子啊，她的丈夫和家人是不是还愿意对她这么好啊，这就难说了。

Thanks for the clarification, I thought it would be that way...

It being a world war II era show with her being in the army I think made certain restrictions easier (bathing specifically ) but other things would be hard.

I'm currently gathering more information from a health care provider in the states about some of these practices.... (just chatting with a friend who is in the industry and thought I would mention it to them)

All I have right now is that the big thing is for a month of recuperation and bonding with the baby but nothing more specific than that (this is apparently the standard recommended practice in the states)...

Side note: apparently it takes about a month for breastfeeding to become easy

[shanghaikai]

I don't think all fruits were forbidden, only the 'cold' ones, 'cold' not in the sense of just out of the fridge, but in the TCM sense. Which would leave plenty of 'warm' fruit that the new mother can eat.

Indeed. Some fruit and food can help body improve blood circulation and stimulate principle metabolism' date=' which is called as “warm” or even “hot”, such as hot chilly, ginger, date, etc. Some fruit and food can slow down blood circulation, hold down digestive enzymes (抑制消化酶) or some other enzymes and hormones, such as pear, banana, watermelon etc.

In TCM, it believes that a woman just after having a baby must have lost a lot of energy, so she is weak and tired. The enzymes and hormones in her body mustn’t be in the same level as usual. At this time, we can offer some food, fruit or even health care product, which can improve blood circulation, work up an appetite, and add more nutrition to help her recover. [/quote']

Lu, as you can see, it isn't about the actual temperature of the fruit, according to studentyoung. In any case, the maxim was no "fruit or cold foods" and not necessarily "cold fruit and cold foods." Still a bit amorphous and categorical to me, it seems.

[Lu]

Lu, as you can see, it isn't about the actual temperature of the fruit, according to studentyoung.

That's exactly what I said in the post you quote of me.

I'm getting the distinct impression that we are talking completely past each other... That might also explain the ongoing discussion we're having elsewhere about cheating/beating men. I suspect that perhaps we don't disagree as much as we think we do.

[gato]

I suspect that perhaps we don't disagree as much as we think we do.

Just kiss and make up already.

[shanghaikai]

Lu, I was trying to make a point about studentyoung's position, not about what you said. So no disagreement there. ;)

[fireball9261]

I just want to add some information here regarding 坐月子, and I cannot guarantee they are scientific, but I will try.

In TCM, 坐月子is not merely to prevent illness. It is supposed to be able to fortify the women’s constitution, and I have no idea why. I think other TCM experts could provide better answers.

Also, from what I heard from TCM doctors and old midwives over the years, it is not that western women do not need坐月子. They also need it. However, there was no tradition of 坐月子, so they don’t do it. According to my TCM doctors and older women, the effect of not 坐月子 will eventually catch up with you. The problems might be weaker immune system, less energy, pains in the womb area, back pains, sore legs, and possibly arthritis. It may be placebo effect like some of you said, but a lot of modern day Chinese women would not risk it.

Regarding Chinese women’s constitution vs. the constitution of women of other race, I believe the Chinese women would probably have similar constitution as the westerners if she ate western style of diet, take western style of nutrition supplements, and did as much sports as the westerners. It would be even better if her parents and grandparents (for a few generations) also did the same. I believe there were scientific studies about how diet, nutrition supplements (I heard some of them are being disproved), and parents’ health effect the health (constitution) of a person.

The following statements are not scientific, and they are just my observations: I have seen a lot ABCs (American Born Chinese) had the same constitution and energy as other westerners. However, I have also seen many Chinese women in my generation (40’s) and younger who have less energy and less strength than the usual westerners of the same generation. Many of these Chinese women (not the ABCs) are also very afraid of cold, and this symptom is considered a sign of weaker constitution in TCM. Contrarily, many ABCs I know do not seem to be as afraid of cold in the same temperature. I can only assume diet, nutrition, and sports had a lot of impact on these differences.

I will also provide some of my understandings of the customs of坐月子as followings:

- No cutting of nails, &

- No pulling of eyebrows (I am not sure why just eyebrows either)

I think the original ideas are based on the ideas that nails and hairs of a person is linked to the person’s energy and blood 精血 (not necessarily the actual blood). Therefore, cutting them may damage/reduce the person’s energy and blood 精血and, thus, lower the strength of the person’s immune system.

This belief may also link to the old Confucius saying of “Body, skin, and hairs are all born of the parents. You should not damage them.” In this case, it’s just a tradition.

However, I believe there are modern studies that linked a person’s health to his/her hairs and nails. For example, a person who is sick may have more hair loss or brittle nails. Although I don’t know there is scientific proof that the act of cutting nails or pulling eyebrows may cause major health problems for women right after birth, I don’t think there is scientific disproof either.

Btw, I do have swollen eyes for at least 2 days after I pulled my eyebrows.

- No use of cold water to wash &

- No bathing

I believe these rules are to prevent chill and infections. People can still use hot clothes to wipe themselves off. Also, not washing with cold water is supposed to prevent back pains, sore legs, pains in the womb area, as well as arthritis in the future. The second part may be placebo effect, but I did have many women who told me that they started to have back pains because they don’t follow this rule when 坐月子.

- No use of bath lotions &

- No use of toothpaste

Personally, I think there are too many unknown chemical ingredients in them that they might hurt the baby through the mother’s milk. Besides, this rule was added in the modern days. Who have heard of bath lotions and toothpaste in the old days?

- No eating of fruits or cold food

I think this particular rule was explained to death in previous postings. I just want to add that Chinese do not eat cold or raw food (excluding fruits) in general traditionally because of the problems of infection. Someone mentioned 涼菜 cold dishes before. Actually, most of the times, they are boiled or drenched in boiling water first and then disinfected by vinegar and/or garlic. There are some regional dishes that are eaten raw, such as, the drunken shrimp. They are either soaked in alcohol first or not eaten by most Chinese any way.

There are also the belief among Chinese that cold food, especially the ice cold food, will cause belly ache and diarrhea. Since I have the irritable bowl syndrome, they do affect me that way somewhat. I guess this belief might come from the combination of people getting belly aches and diarrhea from food poisoning, infectious disease as well as the irritable bowl syndrome by eating cold food. Thus, the rule about not eating cold-temperature or raw food during坐月子 came into being.

Of course, there is also the need not to eat food with cold properties in TCM as explained by others.

- No watching of TV &

- No use of computers

These two rules have also been discussed to death. However, I do want to add one reason I heard about the rules that has nothing to do with the radiation. It has something to do with the mother’s posture. To stay in the same posture in front of TV or computer is not good for anyone’s back especially someone who just gave birth and had extreme trauma to her back and lower body. Besides, these two rules were also created after TV and computers were invented and not an ancient tradition. The ancient tradition was not to wash clothing. In the ancient time, the way for a woman to wash clothing would require her to assume a position similar to sitting in front of a computer and worse (she needed to bend her top torso also). She also needed to be in that position for a long time – thus, no washing clothing.

- Eating only of freshly cooked food

I believe it’s just want to make sure the new mother will eat well and not eat the spoiled food. In the old time, the daughters-in-law generally eat the left over food or food that is no longer fresh (meaning the food is half spoiled but the family don’t want to waste it.)

- No combing or washing of hair

No washing of hair is to prevent the young mother to take a chill because there were no hair blow dryers and no good insulation and heater for the house in the past. It is very easy to take a chill for bathing and washing hair. In the past, Chinese women generally did not wash their hairs very often for this reason. They clean their hair with a special kind of hair brush called bi ji (I don’t have the Chinese characters for them).

The rule for not combing the hair is connected to this bi ji. The teeth of this special brush (or actually comb) are very tight, so it could squeeze out the dirt and oil from the hair. Its teeth are also very sharp so that they could scratch the skins on the head and remove dirt and dandruff. I believe this rule is to prevent the new mother accidentally scratches her head with the sharp teeth of the special comb and causes infection. I knew people still used this kind of comb around 1960’s, but I don’t know whether the combs are still in use in today’s China. I would say that the new mothers should not use sharp combs or brushes to brush their hair, but I wouldn’t say that they couldn’t brush their hair at all.

[shanghaikai]

I think I've learned more than I wanted to know about you (fireball)...but thanks for your insights; I found them to be very contextually informative.

[sthubbar]

My wife is pregnant with our American(me)/Chinese(her) baby. I am finding out that there are some belief's about pregnancy that the Chinese have that differ from my western experience and research online.

No sex during first and last 3 months of pregnancy - we will/are not follow(ing) this

No showering for 1 month after giving birth - we will not follow this

No leaving house for 1 month after giving birth - are you serious?!

What other beliefs have you encountered, good, bad, and strange all appreciated.

[gato]

Here's a thread for you:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/196-how-difficult-is-learning-chinese-characters43

坐月子

[Belle 乐台风]

I seriously think that people's constitution is a very individual thing...which also means that it is NOT dependent on which country they are from.

So...you contstantly hear about CHINESE women having babies with American MEN in China... Well, I am an American woman who is pretty likely to have a half-American (in my case, Northern Irish/Sicilian) half-Chinese baby in China.

Any comments?

My Chinese mama is from Sichuan province and my Chinese papa is from Li Shui. My man and I live in Hangzhou.

My biological mother had both me and my sister at home. VERY easy pregnancy and birth...

I have to say, all you males commenting on pregnancy anywhere really don't have much clout. You cannot experience it, so really, it is best that you don't say too much about it. Please quit trying to input so much. You really haven't a clue (in most cases) as to what our bodies go through nor what they are capable of.

As for the rest...look at actual science. It drives me nuts when people really think that you can get sick JUST from cold. GERMS and BACTERIA make you sick...not temperature!

To the water situation...the only major thing we get from water in the States that one does not get from bottled water is flouride. Not so much of a difference. It is not as if there isn't any water to drink in China.