这/那 (Not) Followed by a Measure Word

[HashiriKata]

We've all learned this fomula: [这, 那, etc + Measure Word + Noun].

For example:

这个人

那本书

这棵树

那朵鲜花

However, it's quite common to see this kind of phrases without the Measure Word. What I would like to know is whether you see any difference between the same phrases with and without a Measure Word. The following sentences that I found are without a measure word: would it make any difference with a measure word added?

1. 那楼是去年建的。 That block was built last year

2. 在那危急的时刻，他还保持着安详的神态。

At the critical juncture, he still kept his composure

3. 听到那消息，她不禁黯然泪下。

The news dampened her spirits and set tears rolling down her cheeks

4. 看他那滑稽的样子，我不禁笑了起来。

He looked so funny that I couldn't help laughing.

5. 他那儿子将来成不了器。 His boy will never come to anything.

6. 她喜爱她的小狗，那小狗也诚然可爱。

She loves her puppy, and the puppy is really lovable.

7. 这天气真邪门儿，这时候还下雪。

What strange weather—snowing at this time of the year!

8. 这孩子太爱乱花钱, 这月要节减他的零花钱。

The child is wasteful with money, so I am going to cut his allowance.

9. 啊，这菊花真美! Ah, these chrysanthemums are simply gorgeous!

10. 这桌子放在门口太碍事了。

This table is too close to the door, it gets in the way.

11. 按说这时候该下雪了。 Ordinarily it should be snowing at this time of the year.

12. 这书晚还了两天，很抱歉。 I apologize for keeping the book two days overdue.

[skylee]

No I don't think so.

[semantic nuance]

second that. It's only omission 省略.

[HashiriKata]

Thanks skylee & semantic nuance! That's comforting to know because it'd be easier not having to think which measure-word to use . But to make double-sure that I can safely use this new-found freedom, could you / anyone please see if the following sentences would sound fine with the measure-word taken off:

a. 那本书好倒是好，可是太贵。 That book is good all right, but it's too expensive.

b. 那棵树被大风刮倒了。 The tree was uprooted by the gale.

c. 把那扇门关上。Close that door!

d. 她把那封信搓揉成一团. She crumpled the letter into a ball.

e. 你戴那顶帽子很好看。 That hat looks nice on you.

f. 这台车停了。 This machine has stopped.

g. 这棵树已经成材了。 This tree has grown to full size.

h. 这封信一直揣在我口袋里。 The letter has been in my pocket all this time.

i. 这所学校是1978年冬创建的。 This school was set up in the winter of 1978.

j. 这首诗格调很老成。 This poem is written in a grand style.

[Hanyu'sWay]

这朵菊花真美 refers to a single flower while 这菊花真美 could refer to a single flower, a plant, a whole display, etc.

[Lu]

AFAIK there are no clear rules for when you can leave the measureword out, but it is more acceptable in some sentences than in others. If you get it wrong, you are understood alright, but it will sound a bit odd.

For example:

a. 那本书好倒是好，可是太贵。 That book is good all right, but it's too expensive. --better leave it in

b. 那棵树被大风刮倒了。 The tree was uprooted by the gale. --better leave it in

c. 把那扇门关上。Close that door! --better take it out

d. 她把那封信搓揉成一团. She crumpled the letter into a ball. --leave it in

e. 你戴那顶帽子很好看。 That hat looks nice on you. --both ok

[Hanlink]

In spoken Mandarin, measure words are sometimes omitted if the meaning is clear. Of your examples, the only one over which the listener might stumble is: 这首诗格调很老成 - without the MW 首, it is unclear what the shī refers to. The same might be said of 那棵树, but if your were standing in front of the tree and discussing it, you could probably get away quite happily without the MW. Sometimes the use of the correct MW comes out as quite pedantic (e.g. 那扇门 and 个 or nothing or doing away with the 那 sometimes just sounds better especially if it is clear which 'door' you are referring to). For more formal written Mandarin, it is probably better to maintain the measure words unless you are using a more classical turn such as 此 or 彼.

[HashiriKata]

Big thanks to all for your needed replies (even if they've broken my dream of an easy life! ).

So from what I've gathered from what has been said, although the measure-word may be optional in these kinds of phrases, it's still hinged on our habit of use and on the context of situation, and these need to be considered.

[Lu]

(even if they've broken my dream of an easy life! )

Surely you gave up that dream the minute you decided to study Chinese! :-)

Your understanding is mostly correct: the measure word is not always optional. Like you say, it depends on the situation.

[HashiriKata]

Thanks Lu!

Surely you gave up that dream the minute you decided to study Chinese! :-)

Actually, since there are a lot of resources around for Chinese that I think it's actually one of the easiest to learn!

On the other hand, I often tell my friends: leaning Chinese will teach one how to be humble

[stifler&巫]

:mrgreen:quite so

in my humble opinion ,you are likely to become more humble than you already are,after learning Mandarin and Chinese culture well.

此致

敬礼!