Jump to content
Chinese-Forums
  • Sign Up

Sometimes it's easy, other times... huh???


HarryCallahan

Recommended Posts

Well I'm reading one of the Chinese Breeze books, it's the 300 worder Left & Right: The Cojoined Brothers. Just want to share my experience and shoot a few questions/queries out. Will get to them as they arise.

I'll quote two sentences from the same paragraph, easy and hard.

First up the easy one....

向右很喜欢这个生日礼物, 有的地方他看不懂, 就来问爸爸妈妈。

My direct English translation, "Xiangyou very much likes this birthday present, (when) has a place he doesn't understand just come asks father/mother (parents)"

No major problems there, it's pretty similar to what we'd say in English (I should add at this point before someone else screams, yes I know it's not english!)

Next, the "huh" one (actually this appears before the previous)...

向右想看的书有的便宜, 有的很贵, 可是只要是向右想买的书, 李方都会给他买。

My direct English translation, "Xiangyou enjoys reading books have cheap, have expensive, but so long as Xiangyou wants to buy (a) book, Lifang (mama) both able give him buy."

wenti..

1. He likes books "have" cheap and "have" expensive. Huh? Isn't there a better way to say "cheap and expensive books"?

Xiangyou xiang kan de shu, pianyi de shu he gui de shu dou xiang...

Or, should that have been the 又。。。又。。。 grammar? Used to express the co-existance of two different states or characteristics?

2. "but so long as..." 可是只要

This is kind of minor, but why the "but"? It doesn't need but, or is actually confusing - that part isn't explaining an exception, it's just telling us that mama will buy both kinds of books. (perhaps this one is picky).

3. "both able give him buy" 都会给他买

A few issues...

Why say "able" to buy? Able means she can walk into the book shop and fork the money over - of course she can do it. Wouldn't we rather say that she is "willing to do it", or simply "does it"?

The verbosity of it. We know which books are under consideration, they're the cheap and expensive books her son enjoys reading which were just referred to, we know where they are going, we just want to say she buys those right? So how about "Ta dou mai de"? (or minus the "de"?).

The... *grrrrr*... Chinese grammar! give him buy! I can say "Wo mai dongxi" = "I buy stuff" and "give him buy". OK, it's Chinese, it's different, they're allowed to be, but still.... *grrrrrr*

(I might add also the utter blandness of the information being conveyed, I guess at this 300 word level the story line is going to be restricted, but telling me that this 5 year kid likes cheap and expensive books... really, he does?? He can't even tell the difference, and it's a book, Shakespeare from the thrift shop is the same as the new leatherbound limited release, it's the words that matter)

On reflection that second one might not sound too bad, but due to the above issues it actually takes me a few minutes of mulling over it to get it. Or in this case about an hour (writing this).

One last question, is it common for Chinese 2nd language speakers, primarily English, to speak a form of Chinese which is based around a more English style grammar and still not be thought of as poor Chinese speakers? Do we need to learn and use structures like "gei ta mai"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. He likes books "have" cheap and "have" expensive. Huh? Isn't there a better way to say "cheap and expensive books"?

Xiangyou xiang kan de shu, pianyi de shu he gui de shu dou xiang...

Or, should that have been the 又。。。又。。。 grammar? Used to express the co-existance of two different states or characteristics?

有的+adv means "some are [adv]", so 有的便宜 means "some are cheap". 又。。。又 means that whatever is being described has both qualities at the same time, so the patterns have very different meanings.

What you see in 向右看的書有的便宜,有的貴 is a topic-comment structure. I'm guessing you can figure this one out now? If you can't, let me know and I'll explain more :)

2. "but so long as..." 可是只要

This is kind of minor, but why the "but"? It doesn't need but, or is actually confusing - that part isn't explaining an exception, it's just telling us that mama will buy both kinds of books. (perhaps this one is picky).

I think that if you understand the meaning of the first clause, you won't find this unnatural anymore. Am I right?

3. "both able give him buy" 都会给他买

A few issues...

Why say "able" to buy? Able means she can walk into the book shop and fork the money over - of course she can do it. Wouldn't we rather say that she is "willing to do it", or simply "does it"?

会 can indicate either that something can be done, or that something will be done in the future. In this case, it means "she will buy them for him".

The verbosity of it. We know which books are under consideration, they're the cheap and expensive books her son enjoys reading which were just referred to, we know where they are going, we just want to say she buys those right? So how about "Ta dou mai de"? (or minus the "de"?).

Because there is a difference in meaning between "She'll buy them all for him" and "She buys them all" (perhaps with the intention of buying all the copies in the country keeping them from him so he cannot read them). There's no need to add a 的.

The... *grrrrr*... Chinese grammar! give him buy! I can say "Wo mai dongxi" = "I buy stuff" and "give him buy". OK, it's Chinese, it's different, they're allowed to be, but still.... *grrrrrr*

Imagine the pain of Chinese students of English when confronted with the 'logic' behind English ;)

One last question, is it common for Chinese 2nd language speakers, primarily English, to speak a form of Chinese which is based around a more English style grammar and still not be thought of as poor Chinese speakers? Do we need to learn and use structures like "gei ta mai"?

I'm afraid that if you want to be thought of as a good speaker of Chinese, you will have to learn to speak like the Chinese do. When in Rome, do as the Romans - you wouldn't consider a Chinese speaker of English fluent either, if he made sentences such as "She all buy give to him" :) But while such aspects of Chinese can be very weird for beginning learners, after a while you'll actually get to like them.

Good luck, and if you have more questions, let us know!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to answer your questions, and then I noticed Daan had just beaten me to it. I think most of what he wrote is pretty clear, but just one thing...

会 can indicate either that something can be done, or that something will be done in the future. In this case, it means "she will buy them for him".

In fact, the use of 会 here could also indicate that something happened regularly in the past. You can think of like the English "would". So your sentence

向右想看的书有的便宜, 有的很贵, 可是只要是向右想买的书, 李方都会给他买。

could be translated as "Some of the books Xiangyou likes to read are cheap, some are expensive, but as long as they are books Xiangyou likes to read, Lifang would buy them all for him".

Without knowing the context, it's difficult to say just from this sentence whether it is intended to be set in the past or present.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, thanks Daan and anonymoose, it's making more sense now. Some and would/will make a big difference.

I'm still at that part of the learning curve where I'm not fully aware of the expanded definitions of those common words we start off with.

hui - able, wo hui shuo yingyu

you - have, wo you hen duo shu

dui - correct, dui! (I've only just learnt "ni dui ta shuo")

So I see them in the alternate contexts and my interpretation of the sentence is all ballzed up.

Some can be "yi xie" and now "you de" too (grammar dependent - I just checked my current textbook and I see it coming up at lesson 15!)

Sorry I've never heard of a "topic-comment structure". I'm not a linguist or teacher ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If ever there was a time for me to be working on my website and not browsing the forums...

The syntax of Chinese in your examples works like this:

There are no such things as "verbs," "prepositions," or "adjectives" in Chinese in any sense that one considers in English. Instead, it's better to think in the way that mathematicians and logicians do, where there are only terms (nouns) and predicates, which cover everything from positional relations to descriptions.

Without going into too much detail, what it means is that adjectives, verbs, and coverbial expressions all function as predications over some terms (FOPL cram example: Pab means: "a has predicate P in relation to b"). Let's have a look at your example:

"向右想看的书有的便宜, 有的很贵, 可是只要是向右想买的书, 李方都会给他买."

More specifically, let's look at this:

"有的很贵"

"有的很貴," doesn't have two adjectives, or two verbs, or anything of the sort. What's going on is attribution (exactly the way in which we use the relative pronoun that in English). The attributive particle, 的 is where the tangles start if you start thinking of Chinese like it's English.

貴 is a predicate: "(being) expensive"

很 is an adverb: "very"

有 is a predicate: "(being) existent" or "being there" or "have"

的 is an attributive particle, close to the English that.

Step by step, we can transliterate.

貴 (something) is expensive

很貴 (something) is very expensive

的很貴 (something) is very expensive that

有的很貴 (something) is very expensive that is existent"

Now, we can translate in various ways,

"something very expensive that exists",

"some being very expensive",

etc.

Context from the earlier part of the string, as well as our natural language tendencies, will wind down our translations, so we can THINK 有的 means "some," but then some may start thinking that 有的 and 一些 are interchangeable, when they're not.

I see lots of introductory texts really ruining instruction by keeping up the myths of English in the Chinese language, when really it's more akin to predicate logic than English.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a computer science grad so I should know what you mean.

One further question...

To say "read book" you can just say 看书 right?E.g. 他想看书 "he likes (with feeling) reading books"

So the 的 that we see in 看的书,I take it that relates to the "有的..." grammar that follows?

I should just skip ahead to that 15'th lesson and see what it says about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're on the right track.

書 is a term

看 is a predicate

的 is the attributive particle

書 book

看書 read book (This is an incomplete predicate without context: P_,B)

There are two solutions.

1.) Add a subject to complete the predication (i.e. to complete your atomic WFF).

我看書 I read book. (Pab, now it's completed!)

2.) Add a modifier to turn the predicate phrase (in this case, a transitive one P_,B) into a noun phrase.

看的書 book that read

Translated, "(a/the) read book".

Here's one that I just threw together.

...我現在看的書...

It translates, "...the book that I am reading now..."

Note: You can answer without the subject when the subject of the sentence is obvious, but that's about spoken convention, not strict syntax.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an independent discovery. I've read Chad Hansen before, but his work doesn't cover the kinds of statements that I make.

I'm working on a website that teaches all of those languages (natural and formal) in as simple a fashion as possible: http://polyglot.wikidot.com .

I figure anyone who's studied both Chinese and FOPL would see the connections almost immediately.

EDIT: Here's a more direct link, now that I've finally got this thing working: http://polyglot.wikidot.com/chinese-syntax . That should give people a bit of an idea.

Edited by the.yangist
More Relevant Linking
Link to comment
Share on other sites

excuse, but i beg to differ. Of course Chinese has verbs, prepositions, and most likely adjectives as well. Only thing is, they don't work like in English, 'cause the grammar of every language works differently...

Also, in linguistics, predicate is a functional term, whereas verb is a formal one.. so English and Chinese also have predicates....

Unfortunately I'm at a conference right now, and can't write more... but I just couldn't let this stand :mrgreen:

It's only necessary to come up with a new linguistic theory if the old one doesn't work, but I don't see that.... If you're interested in a solid linguistic analysis of Chinese (which also doubles as reference grammar), I recommend Li & Thompson, Functional Reference Grammar of Mandarin Chinese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not linguistic theory. It's association of the natural Chinese language with predicate logic, a formal language. Your accusation misunderstands the use of the word predicate as it is held among logicians.

I've heard that some linguists have proposed use of the predicate calculus for explanations of proper syntactic order, and that helped inspire the associations I made, but it's not a full-on linguistic theory.

If you insist on the parts of speech that you see in Latin-based languages to outline Sinitic ones, feel free, but its pedagogical value is, from my reading (which includes the book you mentioned), slim to none.

Also, Chinese does not have prepositions. It has the force to express positional statements with a coverbial-adverbial compound (and in plenty of linguistic literature, they refer to it as "postposition"). Chinese has a series of "verbs" that are mostly unbound morphological units that serve usually in isolation to provide secondary topical relations to the subject of the sentence, and which also can stand on their own as full verbs, sometimes even changing the semantic meaning.

Examples: 跟, 和, 用, 給, 等等

However, it's dubbing as a "preposition" appears flimsy, and is likely a frequency issue rather than anything that applies special rules to the proper formation of Chinese sentences.

Edited by the.yangist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

look, I know that predicate is used differently amongst logicians. Was just pointing out that linguists use it too, but in a different sense. I also know that some linguists use these terms in a predicate logic sense, but usually they will apply these terms not just to Chinese, but to English and other languages as well. But show me the linguist who really believes the syntax of Chinese is akin to predicate logic... The examples you criticise seem to have to do with textbooks equating Chinese and English rather the terms they use.

Terms such as "verb, preposition, adjective" are Latin-based, but this doesn't mean that they can't be employed for languages other than European ones. Indeed it is one of the goals of linguistic typology to develop a set of terrms (and a theory) that can be applied to all languages.

On what do you base your claim Chinese does not have any prepositions? Do you just know (like you seem to just know how the syntax of Chinese works)? As almost anything, it depends on the definition, and analyses differ amongst linguists. Some linguists call them co-verbs, some call them prepositions. None, AFAIK call them postpositions, incidentally, since these are usually defined as following the verb, as in Japanese for instance.

Li & Thompson is one of the most important works in Chinese linguistics, and if you think that its pedagogical value is "slim to none", then I can't see how to continue this conversation in a meaningful way. They have most definitely not just applied Eurocentric notions to Chinese....:conf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to get into the argument about Chinese grammar here, but as for applying 'Eurocentric' linguistic notions to Chinese, it may not be a perfect system, but as far as teaching Chinese as a second language to students with a European language background is concerned, it is surely useful to draw on already familiar territory. I mean, if we disallow the use of terms such as noun, verb, adjective, and so on, it would make explaining Chinese grammatical constructions in English a lot more abstract and much harder for the learner to grasp. I realise that formal linguists want a much more water-tight way of describing Chinese grammar, but for the average learner, or at least for me, applying 'Eurocentric' terms to Chinese grammar has never caused any misunderstandings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only contribution I'm qualified to make is to share my opinion that the long extract of the Chad Hansen book, "A Daoist Theory of Chinese Thought", I found with the search string I mentioned, is worth reading.

I value all three of the previous posts and the three positions that they defend, and it is stimulating to see them so vividly juxtaposed. I guess the rest of this post is "unqualified", since I haven't yet studied Chinese grammar.

"Inside the box" is technique, but genius with respect to the box is found "outside the box", and forces its redefinition. Now, suppose "Chinese Thought" (reflected in the Chinese language, Hansen argues), being to whatever extent outside our box, has some unsuspected gift of genius for us. I assume ours has something for them. Then the exchange of gifts would result in a bigger box that would feature the harmonization, the "synthesis" of the two. Even if this were never actualized in the world, it could still take place within an individual, myself, or the original poster. The original poster said "...it's different, they're allowed to be...", but I'm sharing my opinion that its much bigger and more beautiful than that, and I hope you can find a way to embrace the whole enchilada.

To the original poster:

Some of your points arise only from frustration, and have little to do with Chinese grammar:

1.

1. He likes books "have" cheap and "have" expensive. Huh? Isn't there a better way to say "cheap and expensive books"?

If I'm not mistaken, in French they say the equivalent of "the ball has red", "the weather has hot". This shows that languages vary in what words they keep or leave out. I guess you can't leave out everything, so you would understand why they keep the ones they do once you see the big picture, which includes the ones they leave out. Chinese leaves out a great deal that causes trouble in the other languages I've studied, and I'm very happy about it.

2.

2. "but so long as..." 可是只要

This is kind of minor, but why the "but"?

"Some of the books he chooses are expensive BUT she buys them anyway." I don't see a problem.

3.

Why say "able" to buy? Able means she can walk into the book shop and fork the money over - of course she can do it.
What if she's poor? That is obviously a possibility. "She can and does buy them for him"= "she has the money and/or makes a sacrifice for him, denying herself something". I don't see a problem.

4.

the utter blandness of the information being conveyed
Its about the mother's interest in his development and her willingness to (possibly) sacrifice for it. You're missing the "forest for the trees"; where's your empathy for the characters, your involvement with them? The author has offered this chance to empathize with the mother's love, or to make a note that the child is pampered.

5.

this 5 year kid likes cheap and expensive books... really, he does?? He can't even tell the difference
He picks out books, presumably based partly on their appearance. He picks them out, as a child without a care in the world, *without regard to* their price. I don't see a problem, certainly not with Chinese grammar, or with the style or content of the story.

6.

Do we need to learn and use structures like "gei ta mai"?
Somehow, I would hope you could pause, and find a way to *want* to know and use them. A much bigger goal, such as I tried to describe in my above verbiage, might help: the whole language and the way of thinking and the culture behind it.

You were frustrated.

I bet it has passed already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

querido, thanks for your input. Actually it all makes good sense now due to the previous contributions.

My interpretation wasn't spot on, he wasn't really saying he likes cheap and expensive books but rather "of the books he likes some are cheap, and some are expensive".

会 if to mean 'would' completes it for me.

On the former point, I do recall grammars like 红的书 (a red book), so 向右想看的书 = "books Xiangyou likes to read", followed by some are cheap some are expensive. The 的 was lost on me in the thick of that larger adjective.

Yes it is frustrating when it takes a few minutes to figure out a sentence, or more, 慢走,慢走。。。

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it's the vocabulary. In CHinese, we can construct the sentences very freely.Ot as strict as those in English..

Here are the exercises of translations for Chinese to pass the college extrance exams.

08 shanghai college entrance exams

Translation

Directions: Translate tbe following sentences into English, using the words given in the brackets.

1. 我们打篮球的时间到了。 (time)

2. 他设法把游客及时送到了机场。 (manage)

3. 你今晚能来参加我的生日聚会? (possible)

4. 应该鼓励年轻人按照自己的特长选择职业。(encourage)

5.我对学生所谈的电子产品一无所知,我发现自己落伍了。(ignorant)

6. 尽管遭受如此严重的自然灾害,但只要不灰心,我们终会克服暂时的困难。(Although...)

1. It is time for us to play basketball.

2. He managed to send the tourists to the airport in time.

3. Is it possible for you to attend my birthday party this evening?

4. Young people should be encouraged to choose their careers according to their own strong points.

5. Being ignorant of the electronic products the students are talking about, I find myself left behind.

6. Although we are suffering such a severe natural disaster, we will eventually overcome the temporary difficulty as long as we don't lose heart.

07 shanghai college entrance exams

Translation

Directions:: Translate the following sentences into English using the words given in the brackets.

1.他们的新房子离学校很远。(far)

2.不在房间的时候别让灯开着。(when)

3.我忘了提醒他面试的时间。(remind)

4.各色阳伞给夏日待头平添了活泼的气氛。(add to)

5.无论风多大、雨多急,警察一直坚守在岗位上。(no matter…)

6.医生挨家挨户上门巡坊,省去了许多老年人去医院的麻烦。(save)

1.Their new house is far from the school.

2.Don’t leave the light on when you are not in the room.

3.I forgot to remind him of the time for the interview.

4.Colorful umbrellas add to a lively atmosphere in the summer streets.

5.No matter how hard the rain falls and the wind blows, the police keep to their posts.

6.Doctors door-to-door visits save many old people’s trouble of going to hospital.

06 shanghai college entrance exams

Translation

Directions: Translate the following sentences into English, using the words given in the brackets.

1. 我希望尽快收到你的照片。(hope)

2. 多吃蔬菜和水果有益健康。(good)

3. 今天下午我没空,我和牙医有约。(appointment)

4. 你最好乘出租车去电影节的开幕式,不然就要迟到了。(or)

5. 这款手机样式新颖、携带方面,深受年轻人的欢迎。(popular)

6. 他进公司后不久就独立完成了一项艰巨的任务,同事们对他刮目相看。(so)

1. I hope (that) I can/ will receive your photo(s) as soon as possible./I hope to receive your photo(s) as soon as possible.

2. Eating/Having more vegetables and fruit(s) does good to / is good for one’s health.

3. I’m not free/ available this afternoon because I have/ have made an appointment with my dentist.

4. You’d better go to the opening ceremony of the Film Festival by taxi, or you’ll be late.

5. The mobile phone is fashionable/modern in style and convenient to carry, so it is very popular with the young/ young people/ youngsters.

6. He finished a difficult task on his own/independently soon/ shortly after he entered the company, so his colleagues looked at him differently/ with new eyes/regarded him in a totally different light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I take it those entrance exams are for people that want to sit in normal Chinese classes?

So that's why Chinese can learn faster, whatever science or languages.

When I was in middle school, our chinese teachers asked us to transcribe all the passages of ancient CHinese, all the NEW VOcabulary of modern Chinese including their meanings and usages.

Though Chinese is our mother tongue, we learn it also by practising. Western teaching methods to learning CHinese doesn't work for CHinese, let alone for non-CHinese speakers.

In Shanghai, English is always considered as the simplest subject,. I suppose you should read the English test papers in Shanghai, which concentrates on listening, reading and translations( Shanghai is the only city that consists of this part in CNA). And I also suggest you can have a look at Chinese test papers of Shanghai which is also the most difficult in CNA.

While learning English, we are very serious about the difference between both languages. What you guys figure out are sometiomes simply the problem of Vocabulary, as you may know the word; however you cannot properly use it. You had better memorize the usage by memorizing the whole sentence that embraces the new word you have to learn. And what I want to offer is our teacher uncovered, that is to say the so-called differences between the two languages. And I hope that will be inspirational for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Though Chinese is our mother tongue, we learn it also by practising. Western teaching methods to learning CHinese doesn't work for CHinese, let alone for non-CHinese speakers.

Perhaps underestimating the Western approach there. (Have you been exposed to it?)

Most westerners who bother to give an opinion argue that the Chinese system is a rote learning syle approach "remember these facts, don't question or think too much".

And we practice English quite a lot in those English speaking countries. We actually speak nothing but English, in and out of classrooms. In fact if we had no school at all most of us would still end up being fluent in our mother tongue(s).

BTW you totally failed to answer my simple question - which was written in simple english.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most westerners who bother to give an opinion argue that the Chinese system is a rote learning syle approach "remember these facts, don't question or think too much".

Only when learning languages. I suppose learning a language is different from appreciating and creating the literature. Learning languages have to be in a rote learning style. Personally, I do agree this silly approach to exploring nature as you can see that Chinese students are extremly "strong" in the contest, they are instilled with lots of methods to solving the problems. And it is quite essential for CHinese to enter universities since CHina do not have enough universities, and it is unfair to deprive anyone of his right for a further education. That's why nop CHinese has won the Nobel Price. I didn't mean to underestimate western systems, but I'm sorry to say that I'm telling the truth. And by the way, I have just graduated from high schools in Shanghai, and never been abroad yet, but We do have many foreign teachers in schools.

BTW you totally failed to answer my simple question - which was written in simple english.

I have given you the answer. It is not that we want, but that we have no alternative. And that's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and select your username and password later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Click here to reply. Select text to quote.

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...