Usage of 跟

[Hero Doug]

I'm just looking for a bit of feedback on the usage of 跟. This is the only part of Chinese grammar that has truly given me a lot of trouble.

The book I'm studying from says that 跟 has three usages, 'with', 'from', and 'to'.

with

我跟你去吃饭

from

我跟李老师学日语

to

我跟你说日语

I first assumed that the proper usage was based on logic rather than a grammar pattern, but I'm not so sure about that now. From what I understand both of these sentences are correct.

我会跟你说英文 = I'll speak English to you

我会跟你说英文 = I'll speak English with you

Has anyone picked up a useful tip about knowing when 跟 is used for 'with', 'from', or 'to'?

Thanks.

Edit:

I was just speaking with a friend and it seems that if the verb appears before 跟 then it means 'to'.

I speak to you

我说跟你

Would this be correct?

Edited July 11, 2009 at 01:42 AM by Hero Doug

[renzhe]

The meaning of 跟 is exactly the same in all three examples, it's just that you can use different prepositions to express this relationship in English. It has one meaning, but it can be translated into English using different prepositions, depending on the context.

You could also translate all three using "with":

I go eat with you.

I'm learning Japanese with teacher Li.

I'm speaking Japanese with you.

跟 itself states that the process of learning involves you and teacher Li. From the context of this sentence, it is clear that the teacher is doing the teaching, so the correct translation is that you're learning from teacher Li. 跟 itself does not mean "from". Similarly, the process of speaking involves you and somebody else.

[cui ruide]

Yeah, this seems to be a case of when the Chinese is simple, and the English makes things complicated (which I find often happens). Just think of it as "with," and learn the situations in which it is appropriate in Chinese, as opposed to when you should use 给 gei, for example.

The only way I can think to complicate the meaning of 跟 is that it can sometimes mean "to follow:" 我跟着他... right?

[renzhe]

Yeah, as a verb, it means "to follow", but it is usually used as "跟着" in that case.

Anyway, there is a difference between speaking with somebody and speaking to somebody.

In case you're the only one doing the speaking, I'd use 对 instead of 跟.

[leeyah]

I was just speaking with a friend and it seems that if the verb appears before 跟 then it means 'to'.

I speak to you

我说跟你

Would this be correct?

No there's no such order as verb before 跟. 我跟你说 is the correct order.

Also, 我跟你一起去吃饭 is the same as 我和你一起去吃饭 or 我陪你一起去吃饭 & 跟X说 is sort of a fixed expression, talk to/with X

As Renzhe already pointed out, 跟 in 我跟李老师学日语, 跟 can be translated as ' from' but actually it means: I'm learning with Prof. Li's assistance

In case you're the only one doing the speaking, I'd use 对 instead of 跟.

Right.

[Lu]

Except in cases like 我跟你讲, which means 'I'm telling you!' and the other person doesn't really have a say in it.

[Hero Doug]

The meaning of 跟 is exactly the same in all three examples, it's just that you can use different prepositions to express this relationship in English. It has one meaning, but it can be translated into English using different prepositions, depending on the context.

It seems that the problem is thinking in English instead of Chinese. I naturally assumed it was similar to the English word sharp which dramatically changes it's meaning based on the context (A sharp knife, he looks sharp, be here at nine sharp, etc).

Yeah, this seems to be a case of when the Chinese is simple, and the English makes things complicated (which I find often happens). Just think of it as "with," and learn the situations in which it is appropriate in Chinese, as opposed to when you should use 给 gei, for example.

I've already mastered the "with" portion of 跟, and know how to use 给; now I'm trying to grasp the others uses of 跟.

The problem is that when I see this word I see potential ambiguity.

我跟李老师学日语

Learning "from" teacher Li and learning "with" teacher Li have completely different meanings. Imagine a high school student who takes an after hours Japanese class and just happens to meet his math teacher Mr. Li there. He's in no way learning from him, he's just taking a class with him (maybe they sit together). If you look at the same sentence using "with" instead of "from" then Mr. Li is no longer a student of the class but rather instructing it.

Maybe this is the nature of the beast. Like saying "I have a chinese teacher". We don't know if it's the teachers nationality that's Chinese or if it's their subject matter that's Chinese.

In case you're the only one doing the speaking, I'd use 对 instead of 跟.

I read somewhere that using 对 for "to" can come off as being rude as it's quite direct. Any truth to this?

No there's no such order as verb before 跟. 我跟你说 is the correct order.

The book that lists this grammar has this sentence: 他要去跟黄先生说再见

So here 去 acts as an auxiliary verb and 说 is the main verb which is mostly in line with what you said. It's translated as "He wants to go and say goodbye to Mr Huang".

If we wrote 他跟黄先生说再见 it would then be "He wants to say goodbye with Mr Huang" right?

Maybe the problem is that I'm putting the sentences into different contexts and trying to figure out a way to make those contexts clear (as in saying goodbye "to" or "with" Mr Huang) when it's the actual context of the situation that will make the context clear (Mr Huang is leaving, so obviously I'll be saying goodbye to him).

Edited July 11, 2009 at 02:29 AM by Hero Doug

[leeyah]

You may find this helpful: Co-verbs & Answers.

他用中文对我说... He said to me in Chinese...

But depending on whether you use 对 or 跟, as in：他用中文跟我说几句话。It could be interpreted as: He spoke to me a few words in Chinese vs ：We exchanged a few words in Chinese (implying: I, too, can speak Chinese)

Except in cases like 我跟你讲, which means 'I'm telling you!' and the other person doesn't really have a say in it.

Actually, the same goes for 对 as well. For further finesse in 语气 & context, compare:

我对你说! = 听我对你说！ (不耐烦的语气) >> where both imply：听我说！(意味着：你懂什么？让我说吧！）

If we wrote 他跟黄先生说再见 it would then be "He wants to say goodbye with Mr Huang" right?

Right. You may also want to compare:

我对他说再见，他什么都没说，就走了。I said goodbye to him, but he didn't say a word/remained silent and just walked away.

vs

我跟他说再见了。 We said goodbye to each other.

And yes, no matter which of these you use, basically, it's all in the context.

[renzhe]

I've just discussed this with my girlfriend, and she says that the sentence means "I'm learning FROM teacher Li."

跟 means with, but often has the connotation of following somebody. In the sentence involving 学, a teacher-learner situation is implied. If such a thing is not desired, you have to say 我跟李老师一起学日语.

Similarly, 我跟你去城市 means you're going with somebody, but it has the connotation of "coming along". The person is going to the city, and you're coming along. If this is not the desired meaning, you would say 我跟你一起去城市 or 我和你一起去城市.

Apparently, 跟, unlike 和 or 同, often has the connotation of "following", which changes the interpretation of sentences like the one involving 学.

I didn't know this either, I've learned something today, so thanks for the discussion

Edited July 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM by renzhe

[anonymoose]

跟 means with, but often has the connotation of following somebody. In the sentence involving 学, a teacher-learner situation is implied. If such a thing is not desired, you have to say 我跟李老师一起学日语.

Apparently, 跟, unlike 和 or 同, often has the connotation of "following", which changes the interpretation of sentences like the one involving 学.

I didn't know this either, I've learned something today, so thanks for the discussion

As far as I know, you could also say 我和李老师学日语 and the meaning would be the same. I'm not sure if 同 could likewise be used, but anyway I don't hear 同 used very frequently in this neck of the woods.

Edited July 12, 2009 at 01:36 PM by anonymoose

[leeyah]

No, 同 is definitely not interchangeable with 跟/和 as it would change the meaning: 我同李老师学日语, means both Prof. Li and the speaker are learning Japanese from a third person

More clarification (or complication )

跟 = 和：

1.meaning 'with':

有事要跟他们商量。 Consult them if there are any problems.

2.meaning 'both':

车上装的是机器跟材料。The lorry is loaded with machines & materials.

他的胳膊跟大腿都受了伤。He sustained injuries in both his arms and legs.

跟 with 说，meaning 向 'towards': 你这主意好，快跟大家说说。 Your idea sounds good, why don't you tell us more about it?

跟 means with, but often has the connotation of following somebody.

跟 in 跟着 is a verb & it means 紧接着, follow closely, keep up with:

跟上时代/跟上形势 keep up with the times/keep abreast of the current situation

听完报告跟着就讨论 We held a discussion right after hearing the report.

[renzhe]

I've seen 巴金 use 同 often where I'd expect 和, but perhaps I wasn't too concentrated on the nuances of using it.

[HashiriKata]

I've seen 巴金 use 同 often where I'd expect 和

There're no problems in using 同 in the place of 和 in the sense of "and". I think 同 is often used in this sense in the South.

[leeyah]

I've seen 巴金 use 同 often where I'd expect 和

I think 同 is often used in this sense in the South.

Yes, 同 (做连词) is yet another remnant of 古汉语, often seen in literary language & like HashiriKata said it's still widely used in the South, eg. Cantonese uses 同/同埋 for both 和 & 跟:

唔想同你讲！ I won't speak to you any more! (唔 = 不)

我同德国果个朋友好耐都无联系了…I've lost all contact with my German friend...(好耐 = 很久, the same goes for 无 in Canto, Mandarin would have used 没(有))

but I've never heard 同 spoken in place of 和/跟 in modern Mandarin colloquial.

[Hero Doug]

Actually the discussion did clear things up quite a bit. If you remember that 跟 has a "following" meaning to it then issues like studying with the teacher become a lot more clear.

I also like the usage of 同. It seems to be a more suitable word for saying that you study "with" teacher Li and not "from" teacher Li.

[isela]

This is a tricky one!

1.1 "跟" originally means "ankle" (note how it is written!), and it's correct that when it's used as preposition it has the connotation of "following": 我 跟 XXX学网球　(I learn tennis from XXX).

1.2 However, in most of the cases, I would say that the sense of "following" is rather weak, and the word is used mostly as "with": 我 跟 XXX去美国　(I go to the US with XXX).

Note that you can still interpret this as “I follow XXX to the US”, but I believe that most Chinese people wouldn’t take it that way. If you want to emphasis the "following" sense, you should say 我 跟着 XXX去美国．

1.3 Conclusion:

Pay attention to the context. If in the context uses 跟着, or if it uses 跟 but already has something like “teaching” involved, then it means “following”; otherwise, it means “with”.

Consider these examples:

我 跟(with) XXX一块儿 跟(from) XXX学网球.

我 跟着(following) XXX 跟(from) XXX学网球.

2. "和" mostly is used as “with”.

But occasionally, (especially or maybe only) when teaching is involved, it can mean “following”, too: 我 和XXX学网球　"I learn tennis from XXX".

This is really tricky. Looks like in Chinese, when people are talking about learning and when only one name is mentioned, then the first assumption is that this is the teacher rather than a study partner. (Don’t know whether this is anther evidence how much we respect teachers).

To adjust the misunderstanding, use this: 我和(with) XXX跟(from) XXX学历史. Two names mentions and problem solved.

3. "同": I personally won’t use this. It’s like really OLD Chinese.

4. Lastly, 我 跟　你说／讲 is another special usage of 跟 which is not much to do with the above. I've heard some people saying 我和你说，but rather rarely. Never heard 我同你说 except in operas/classical writings.

[Hero Doug]

Guess I'll have to be a little more careful with using 同. I had started using it for "with" recently. If 跟 is a more common word for "with" then I suppose that's the word to use.

Looks like in Chinese, when people are talking about learning and when only one name is mentioned, then the first assumption is that this is the teacher rather than a study partner.

Good quote, I'll be putting this tip to the test ;)