沒能 and 不能

[anonymoose]

I think this may have been discussed before (although a search didn't turn anything up), but when can verbs such as 能 be negated by 沒? As far as I recall, the consensus was that 能 is always negated by 不, but a google search for "沒能" comes up with many results, eg. 中國沒能造就全球知名品牌的最簡單解釋，也許是國內競爭激烈; 我們沒能預測到國際金融危機.

Would the following two translations be accurate?

I still can't solve that problem 我還不能解決那個問題

I still haven't been able to solve that problem 我還沒能解決那個問題

[leeyah]

(Don't know why ) but somehow I feel that 没 in the context you provided isn't negating the verb 能, as 能 could in fact be an abbreviation of 能力 / 可能 both nouns

As for translating 没能 vs 不能, yes, there seems to be a nuance in tense aspect between:

中國沒能造就全球知名品牌的最簡單解釋，也許是... 'The simplest explanation why China has been unable to create a world class brand (yet) is perhaps ...'

vs:

中国不能造就全球知名品牌的最简单解释，也许是... The simplest explanation why China can't (is unable to) create ... etc etc.

句库 can give you further insight, although most examples are poorly translated eg 自从发生事故以后，他一直没能离开家 is better translated as 'ever since the accident happened he hasn't been able to leave the house (at all)' then it gives the impression of 因事故受伤 没办法/无法/没有能力(站起来) 所以没有离开家

[Lu]

I agree that when it's used with 没, 能 is more a noun than a verb. I don't know what the grammar rule would be, but this is what it looks like to me.

[anonymoose]

somehow I feel that 没 in the context you provided isn't negating the verb 能, as 能 could in fact be an abbreviation of 能力 / 可能 both nouns

I agree that when it's used with 没, 能 is more a noun than a verb

I see what you're saying, though I'm not entirely convinced. 能 could be an abbreviation of 能力, but it could equally well be an abbreviation of 能夠. There are other examples with 沒能夠 and as far as I know, 能夠 cannot serve as a noun, eg. 为什么一辆公交车燃烧会导致死伤这么多人,他们为什么没能够逃出来?

Edited July 31, 2009 at 05:10 PM by anonymoose

[leeyah]

Well, this may as well be a problem of multifunctionality of Chinese words rather than grammatical classification of Chinese words based on Western patterns.

I see you are in Shanghai, so, if you're a student, for such tricky examples the best way to find out is to ask your teacher to explain. That's what they're paid to do. Then you can teach us

[Lu]

他们为什么没能够逃出来? I think here it's just a negation of a 了-sentence.

But, that's just what I make of it and I might well be wrong. If you do have a teacher, do ask her.

[anonymoose]

I am currently not in China, and neither am I a formal language student, so unfortunately I have no teachers to ask at present.

However, with the talent on this forum, there surely must be someone who can shed more light on this matter.

[Don_Horhe]

Once one of our teachers told us that basically 没能 = couldn't and 不能 = can't. While it does make sense, I doubt it's as simple as that.

[renzhe]

To me, it sounds like leeyah and Lu say. More like "have no ability" than "can't".

But this doesn't mean much.

[xiaoxueren8804]

I'm a Beijinger.

I think 沒能 is the denial to the past and 不能 just means can't.

I think 沒能 means "Someone has done efforts but he hasn't".Sometimes 沒有 has a similar meaning ,but 沒有 just means"haven't".

Because I can take many examples about 沒 is the denial to the past.Such as，我没吃饭(I have not had dinenr)；弟弟没回家(Brother hasn't come back home)

I hope I can help you.I hope we can be your friend.My email is xiaoxueren8804@sina.com

[Guoke]

(Don't know why ) but somehow I feel that 没 in the context you provided isn't negating the verb 能, as 能 could in fact be an abbreviation of 能力 / 可能 both nouns

I'm inclined to agree on this.

不能... = can't... or (be) not able to..., the '能' here is a verb

无能... = (do) not have the ability to..., the '能' here is a noun and an abbreviation for 能力

A similar example would be 不需(要) and 无需:

不需(要)... = (do) not need to..., the '需(要)' here is a verb

无需... = do not have the need to..., the '需' here is a noun and an abbreviation for 需要

[anonymoose]

I think 沒能 means "Someone has done efforts but he hasn't".

That's what I think. At least this seems to be how it is used in practise. Thanks for the info, xiaoxueren8804.

As for those saying 能 in 沒能 is a noun, how do you explain 没能够? (This isn't a challenge - I'd just be interested to know)

[leeyah]

I believe someone here has recently elaborated on how untrained native speakers may not always be the most reliable source of information for high level stuff like the difference between 没能 & 不能 here. That's why I suggested that you consult your teacher.

Anyway, native speaker or not

I think 沒能 means "Someone has done efforts but he hasn't"

hasn't what? Because it is obvious that the above sentence means exactly the same as hasn't been able to in post # 2, so perhaps you should dwell on this a bit longer OP, you may eventually come up with something useful.

As for 没能够 here's a nice sentence to clear things up a bit:

为什么马克思主义的实现功能没有能够在他的诞生地西方得到发挥,却在遥远的东方(比如中国)取得伟大成功呢?

just briefly: "why was marxism unable to take root/ develop or whatever in its place of birth but has instead made such enormous success in the far far East, as eg in China? "

clearly 没能够 + 做某事 in other words it indicates 没有能力 i.e. 无法 做某事 = has made efforts but has been unable to do ..., or perhaps you have a better explanation?

btw 无法 stands for 没有办法

[HashiriKata]

clearly 没能够 + 做某事 in other words it indicates 没有能力 i.e. 无法 做某事 = has made efforts but has been unable to do ..., or perhaps you have a better explanation?

No, you're taking the long way and you may get lost on the way. 没能够 + 做某事 means just the same as the plain 没能+ 做某事.

In fact, like leeyah, many posters so far seem to have taken the long way. To me, the difference between 没能 and 不能 simply lies in the difference between the old 没 and 不: 没能 tells you something didn't realise, something failed to succeed, and that stage is now over and finished.不能 also tell you that something is not realised or can't be realised, however, 不能 leaves the door open as regards to possible future change. In other words, when you say 我不能做某事, you're saying you can't do something but there's still a possibily that it can be done, if circumstances change. On the other hand, when you say 我没能做某事, you're saying that you failed to do it, and that is now unchangeable, finalised, finished and over (Note that I avoided using the word "the past", because sometimes something in the past is still not finished with regard to the present, and 不能 is therefore still applicable in such cases).

[semantic nuance]

I second HK's point.

Example: 我沒能把這個句法解釋完整, 不能就說我沒用心思考這個句法.

[leeyah]

It seems to me that both post #14 & #15 are way off from OP's original question: can 没 be used to negate verbs? This thread has in turn taken the direction of unargumented agreeing or disagreeing with post #2, which basically leads to nowhere.

没能够 + 做某事 means just the same as the plain 没能+ 做某事

Obviously this is just repeating of :

没能够 + 做某事 in other words it indicates 没有能力 i.e. 无法 做某事 .

But then this doesn't seem to make much sense:

没能 tells you something didn't realize, something failed to succeed, and that stage is now over and finished.不能 also tell you that something is not realized or can't be realised, however, 不能 leaves the door open as regards to possible future change

The nuance in meaning between the two is so minimum that without a tense marker like 还+ 不/没能 as in OP's last two examples I'd say it's the other way round or at least not clear enough. 没能(够) word for word means 'has not(had)+ability+enough' i.e. it says XX hasn't reached the level of capacity needed to do ... yet, while 不能 on its own is categorical in stating that it can't be done in any way, i.e. leaves no possibility for things to change. But still the border line between the two is very thin. For illustration:

*自从发生事故以后，他一直没能离开家 is better translated as 'ever since the accident happened he hasn't been able to leave the house (at all)' then it gives the impression of 因事故受伤 没办法/无法/没有能力(站起来) 所以没有离开家

Would you say it's finished & that the person involved stands no chance of leaving the house even after his condition has improved? I don't think so.

Suppose 不能 /没能 are answers to the question 他能不能离开家? -(他)不能！ referring to the present and 他一直到现在没能离开家 to the past, but IMO neither excludes future changes.

So 没能 above * is actually close in meaning to:

中國沒能造就全球知名品牌的最簡單解釋，也許是... 'The simplest explanation why China has been unable to create a world class brand (yet) is perhaps ...'

but it still leaves the possibility that given the right conditions things can change in the future. If it said 中国不能造就... it would mean China can not ... at present and probably will not be able to ... in the future

I second HK's point.

Example: 我沒能把這個句法解釋完整, 不能就說我沒用心思考這個句法.

As this is not a battle to take sides but a place for discussing semantic nuances I think OP would benefit most by hearing a solid explanation for this in English.

As for

you're taking the long way and you may get lost on the way

Thank you for the warning but I am not the one in need of direction here and I don't claim to be an expert either, I was just trying to express my view on OP's question. And I apologize if I have given a wrong impression, but in fact I believe none of us here is really expert enough to provide a 100% accurate explanation. Learners or native speakers alike, all we can do is make assumptions based on personal understanding of the matter and argue infinitely. But I've got better things to do, so please excuse me from any further discussions.

[HashiriKata]

Following my post above (#15), I think some examples may help to make it a little less abstract:

没能 (as opposed to 不能) is for what is over and done with:

The best example I could find for this is

"他去参加战争，没能活着回来。" (He went off to the war and never returned (alive.))

没能 (but not 不能) is required for this because the solder is dead, he's part of the unchangeable history.

Some more common examples:

我想摘那苹果，但是没能够着。(I tried to pick the apple but I couldn't get at it.)

他干得很好,可是没能打破纪录。(He did very well, but still didn't manage to break the record)

很抱歉, 昨晚我没能参加你们的聚会. (I'm sorry I couldn't make your party last night.)

他没能刹住车，撞到了树上。 (He didn't brake in time, and crashed into the tree.)

All of these are about events/ states that are over and finished with.

不能 (as opposed to 不能) is for what is still going on or related to the present or the moment of speaking (and therefore changeable): There are plenty of examples of sentences with 不能 and you can examine them for this property. Suffice it to say when we say "他今天有事儿不能来" we mean to say he can't come, but this doesn't exclude the possibility that someone may put a gun to his head and force him to come (Compare this to the finality of "昨晚我没能参加你们的聚会" above).

[anonymoose]

Thanks for the input, everyone. Hopefully this place is where we can help each other further our understanding of Chinese rather than personalising the argument.

Just to clarify, my initial question wasn't about the use of 沒 to negate verbs in general, but specifically modal verbs such as 能. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

I think 沒能 means "Someone has done efforts but he hasn't".

I think what xiaoxueren8804 was trying to say was "someone has made the effort but did not succeed (with whatever it was they were trying to achieve)".

That is how I understand the use of 沒 with 能(夠), and the various examples that people have put here seem to back that up.

So why all the confusion? Well grammar books say that modal verbs such as 能 cannot be negated by 沒. For example, this is what "Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar" by Yip Po-Ching and Don Rimmington has to say about it:

Because the function of a modal verb is to indicate mood or attitude, its negator is always 不 bù 'not' (or the more classical 无 wú 'not' in some cases) and never 没 méi or 没有 méiyŏu even if it is referring to a mood or attitude in the past.

My question is really, how can the above quote be reconciled with the fact that in practice 沒 is regularly used to negate 能 as evidenced by the huge number of real-life examples (search google and you'll see)?

[semantic nuance]

As this is not a battle to take sides but a place for discussing semantic nuances

I think you took it the wrong way, Leeyah. I was not taking any side. I just agreed with HK's explanation, which was also what I would explain if I could.

I think OP would benefit most by hearing a solid explanation for this in English.

I don't get it. I just posted a sentence example, which I think OP will definitely understand it in Chinese. Solid? How solid is solid?

[HashiriKata]

My question is really, how can the above quote be reconciled with the fact that in practice 沒 is regularly used to negate 能 as evidenced by the huge number of real-life examples (search google and you'll see)?

This exactly is what confuses many of us: 能 itself is a modal verb and its range of usage is wide. However, when combined with 沒 into 沒能, it has this very narrow range of meaning: "tried but failed".

By the way, my posts are not really about the use of 沒, but they only pointed out that understanding what 沒 is about is fundamental to understanding the meaning of 沒能.