woodcutter Posted August 4, 2004 at 01:35 AM Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 01:35 AM Now, I love Journey to the West, but if you recommend it to a person like my mother, who is a Shakespeare/Brontes English teacher in England person, she will say it is just childish. Ditto for "Water Margin". Are these books literature? Does the fact that "the greatest works in Chinese literature" tend to be action packed romps have a bearing on the culture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:08 AM Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:08 AM did you read the whole novel in chinese? or did you just watch the cartoon? Shakespeare is pretty fairytale like and action packed as well. As for Shakespearean love, i dont think you can find love in a buddhist novel such as Journey to the West, you should try Dreams of the Red Chamber. For Shakespearean intrigues, trickeries and heroism, both 3kingdoms and Water Margin would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:23 AM Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:23 AM No, I read it in English. I am of the opinion that the meaning of a sentence is expressible in any language. If I struggle through the Monkey King's exploits in Chinese, he is going to be giving some pretty deep philosophical lectures and emotional insights along the way that I missed out on, right? My mother hates translations by the way, and only likes to read things in the original. Trouble is she doesn't speak any foreign languages. So she will never read the book, and I am only speculating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:28 AM Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:28 AM For ancient novels, I still prefer 3kingdoms over anything though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:52 AM Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 04:52 AM I like it too. I am of the opinion though, that all these books are more like racy blockbusters than "literature" (though to a lesser extent with "Romance of the 3 kingdoms" than "JTTW" or "TWM") and the fact that they are so old, and yet have that kind of modern populist flavour, is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted August 4, 2004 at 07:41 AM Report Share Posted August 4, 2004 at 07:41 AM Literature is a study, only when one has studied it in full can one truly enjoy and appreciate the genius of the writer. Languages reflect culture because it developped out of a culture in a corner of the world. Cultures are different from other cultures, as with languages, translation can only give a rough approximation between languages, but most of the cultural background and the true genius of the writer are lost. Translators can only try to reinvent the novel in English, through the literary genius of the translator alone, and inspired by the genius of the original writer. I think at the moment, if one isn't reading the original, in the original language, then the televison series adaptation of «Journey to the West» would be the best. But keep in mind it is only an adaptation of the genius of the writer, and how the director of the cartoon interpreted the original novel, reinvented through the director's genius, in order to suit the children. As with the television series to suit the mass media, and the English translation to suit the Anglophones. The four classics are usually read in the order: «Journey to the West» Primary (adventurous) «Romance of the Three Kingdoms» Junior Secondary (strategist) «Water Margin» Senior Secondary (rebellious) «Dream of the Red Chamber» University (romance) Of the four, «Dream of the Red Chamber» is the best. Universities of the Humanities open classes that simply study the novel. Many scholars study the novel in their own branch. The main author of the novel Cao Xueqin, wrote it as a reflection of his life. He was a very knowleadgeable person. Learnt medicine, the 3 philosophies, the 5 classics, astronomy, botany, geography, mathematics, his family were hosts to the Emperor... He passed away without completing his book. I don't know what is the idea of a blockbuster? But wouldn't Shakespeare's plays be much more of a "blockbuster" than true literature? He wrote them for a company in order to earn money. He took most of the ideas from previous writers. "Plays" were the blockbusters of England then. All in all, there are lots of ideas lost in translation. The poems, the idioms, the cultural background, the myths, the tales, even the names of the characters are homophones to reveal the character's characteristics. A piece of literature translated is as striping the writer of one's tool and medium. -Shibo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 5, 2004 at 12:13 AM Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 at 12:13 AM Some things are lost in translation, though a good translation can save a lot, in fact I like translations which are "too literal" for some other tastes. Come on though, leave it out. Lu Xun and many other modern writers read just like literature in translation. The monkey king, with his magic shrinking stick, does not. The book is rich in many ways, historical detail, Buddhist themes and mythological characters - well worth reading. The plot, however, is tailor made for manga cartoons. Again, I view this as fairly positive. Many people actually want to read these books, whereas the percentage of the English speaking public who pick up high literature for fun is pretty low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted August 5, 2004 at 01:53 AM Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 at 01:53 AM Woodcutter, what is literature, can you give us a precise definition? Your definition seems to be based on the theme and the story, so if a story is magical it is not literature. (do you consider classical greek or roman stories to be literature? e.g. Poseidon turns into a swan and rapes a woman. Also, wouldn't you say the prophecy between Mucduff and Macbeth, Juliet's death potion and the fairies in Mid Summer Night a bit goofy, too?) I would say, any written piece of work can be considered a piece of literature, and every story has the potential to become "high literature", it all depends on how the author conveys his theme and his story, and what literary instruments he employs. Journey to the West is a 神话. Chinese people actually believed in those gods as much as the romans and greeks believed in their Zeus, Aphrodite, Poseidon, Artemis etc... So, it is not entirely a children's comic book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted August 5, 2004 at 08:16 AM Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 at 08:16 AM If I struggle through the Monkey King's exploits in Chinese, he is going to be giving some pretty deep philosophical lectures and emotional insights along the way that I missed out on, right? Have you tried Stephen Chow's version yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 7, 2004 at 12:09 AM Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 at 12:09 AM If modern western people generally picked up Greek and Roman legends and stories when they wanted a deep read, it would be quite a different society to the one westerners inhabit. By the way, such stories are indeed popular manga books in Korea. Shakespeare straddles the two worlds, but I think Shakespeare has more dimensions than the Ming classics, as well as employing plots involving magic. It seems to me anything ancient, whatever it is like, is given the title "literature", whereas a modern piece of literature must strive to be "highbrow". So I don't think the problem with a definition of literature is one I have created. If "The Water Margin" was written today, it would probably not be marketed at the highly educated. I'm not having a go at it. I'm saying it is a fairly uncomplicated adventure story. That's OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted August 7, 2004 at 01:59 AM Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 at 01:59 AM Woodcutter, you seem to still base your definition on "the story" and your personal taste. There's a nice overview of the 4 novels on this page: http://www.yellowbridge.com/literature/classics.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 7, 2004 at 06:11 AM Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 at 06:11 AM Quest, did you read what it says on that website? It says "Outlaws of the Marsh" is like a DC comic! And the description given about the Journey to the West would not lead one to believe the book is very deep. I'm not only talking about the story - I'm saying those two books in particular lack a dimension or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted August 7, 2004 at 07:00 AM Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 at 07:00 AM yes I read it. I posted that page because it conforms to your observation, while at the same time explains why each is still considered a great classical literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcutter Posted August 8, 2004 at 05:09 AM Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 at 05:09 AM I'm restricting my comments to Journey to the West and Outlaws of the Marsh, I'm not daft enough to take on Baoyu and his immense family and the rest of Chinese literature. So, the website backs me up, I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibo77 Posted August 8, 2004 at 12:31 PM Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 at 12:31 PM I think literature can be interpreted in all different ways. There really isn't much right or wrongs. The important thing is that ideas are epressed, and connects with you. It could be the praising of the difficulties the monk had to bring home the sutras, to reveal the corruption of the Song bureaucrats with small stories. That itself is a great idea. -Shibo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jz87 Posted August 18, 2004 at 07:36 PM Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 at 07:36 PM Shibo77, I read the first 3 in exactly that order and in roughly the same time frame, even though I grew up in the US. The plot and the age group really fit very well. Journey to the West is a very simple story and I agree it's perfect for a manga. My favorite though is Romance of Three Kingdoms. It's simply an epic. I was so sad at the end to see that despite all of Zhuge liang's efforts, victory was not to be. Shui Hu is a bit too chaotic for my tastes. I guess it's hard to sympathize with outlaws. I don't think comparison to Shakespeare is appropriate, the format is very long prose, whereas Shakespeare worked in poem and play format. I think a better comparison is with Homer or Ovid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lu Posted August 26, 2004 at 12:41 PM Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 at 12:41 PM Homer and Ovid also wrote poetry. If you can't compare it with Shakespeare, you can't compare it with them either, I think. I haven't finished real translations of either of the books, but do have an idea about them. JttW is not just a cartoon-like children's book, there are too many ideas in it for that. The action might be fun for kids, but much of the philosophy would go over their heads. There's more in it than just the story, and this makes it more than just a cartoon. This goes even more for the HLM. Many scholars study it for a long time, rows of books are written about it, so much more is in it than just the romance (in fact, Baoyu and his cousins often don't appear at all for quite some pages). Everything comes together, everything fits, with the 5 phases, Taoism, etc etc, that is definately not just a popular story, it's higher literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiao Yu Posted September 1, 2004 at 10:08 PM Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 at 10:08 PM Journey to the West was the first thing I encountered and I still love it now; unfortuntely being an ABC, my Chinese reading ability doesn't allow me to read the actual novels in the original Chinese. JTTW may seem like a simple story, but it's actually quite deep (and I'm just referring to the tv adaptation, which is a rather abridged version of the story.) There's a lot of philosophy involved: trickery, deception, the question of the existence of actual good and evil; trust, betrayl and forgiveness...and overall themes of religious devotion and loyalty, among others. Fantastical elements don't make a story any less qualified to be called real literature. JTTW/XiYouJi's playful attitude reflects upon the time period of when the story was written, and I would say is indeed less 'serious' overall, if you want to put it that way. But of the 4 classics, I would say it's the only one that's not 'serious' in an English-teacher way. How can you call a tale of revenge, plotting, and betrayl by society in Water Margins; warfare tactics, mind-games and strategy; and a deep romance-tragedy reflecting society and individuals "childish"? I mean, famous Shakespeare classics read in English classes like 'Romeo and Juliet' really seem to pale in comparison with the cultural detail, romance and contemplation in HongLouMeng/Dream of the Red Chamber; there's a lot more backstabbing and plotting in "Water Margins" and "3 Kingdoms" than in 'Julius' and many other plays combined. I would actually say that "action-packed romps" actually get more exposure; as to English class novels, I and the majority of students would never pick one up if not forced to. ;) Maybe that has a bearing on the culture too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKC Posted September 29, 2016 at 05:19 AM Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 at 05:19 AM Perhaps Journey to the West is an allegory. Perhaps it is about understanding 西. When you understand 囗兀西, you get to start your journey towards enlightenment. Just a thought. Don't shoot me for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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