SRS and learning new characters

[animal world]

I will forever be grateful to Chinese Forums for having introduced Mnemosyne and Anki to me. However, the old (slow and inefficient) days of learning characters by writing them had a few advantages. Those were:

- in my notebook i would write the character as well as a few new words that included this character. This context made it easier to learn new characters and also facilitated the process of having them stick in my mind.

- if a new character caused confusion with a character that i already knew, then i would jot down the old character there as well so that i always had the differences between them right in front of my eyes.

With Mnemosyne and Anki everything is random and having lost these links, i ended up separating the single characters as a separate category. I always do these repititions last and instead of this being dessert it feels more like a beating-myself-up session.

Anyone has found a solution for this?

I want to thank Imron who, the other day, linked to an old post the describing the meditation/visualization process he follows and that this takes him only 5 sec per character. I hope he reads this post and responds by stating how long it took him to become proficient in this method. I tried it the other day and it certainly was a more peaceful approach but it took a long time. And heck, i would be happy if it took me only 15-30 sec because thus far this seems like the best approach.

[querido]

(Hey Imron. In case you're reading this, don't miss the reference to you, above.)

Anyone has found a solution for this?

I resolved a similar problem (real-world versus flashcard-world) by adjusting my expectations regarding what the flashcard program does for me, and then moving my main efforts to the "real world" of reading and listening. I now view the flashcard system as an *automatic quiz-generating dictionary*. That is a very important tool, but not *the* center of learning. So your notebooks or whatever works for you are great, and the flashcard system is... an important accessory.

I was concerned that this language hasn't sparked to life in my mind yet as I imagine it should, and it seemed to me that this... birth... is so far above doing flashcards as to make it seem a waste of time, but I don't believe that. The solution is, I repeat: it's a very special active dictionary; knowing what's in it facilitates reading (and maybe listening), then the language is gained through doing... real language.

This idea, of a machine that could guarantee learning a language via a mechanical process that I could get a grip on, and force, was seductive and incredibly hard to overcome. Gaining a language involves a mysterious transformation that must in itself be nonverbal, or preverbal, or something. I can't grasp it but must trust it to happen, following, I presume, massive reading and listening. Internalizing your dictionary helps you do that. That's it.

[realmayo]

animal world, I may have misunderstood your post, but could you not add an extra "side" to your cards, and make it show up alongside the "answer". In this field, whenever required, you can jot down stuff to help you remember the character, example sentences, etc.

querido, I think that All Japanese all the time website in particular encourages a sense that SRS programmes can help you learn the guts of a language. I've always thought instead that SRS programmes are great for making sure you don't forget things. Eg vocab, how to write characters, etc.

[querido]

To animal world: realmayo's suggestion is great, but if you like real pen and paper, just rethink the role of the flashcard program. I keep my dictionary program open beside mnemosyne and do supplemental study as needed. Here is one possibility for you: The notebook is the center of attention. Think of the flashcard program as an intelligent scheduler of quizzes into the notebook. The extra field that realmayo suggests could be, not a space where you integrate the notebook *into* the flashcards, but just an index into the notebook, like "page 99", if needed. (But it might be easier to simply order your notebook by pinyin to avoid needing this index. Since my dictionary program is accessible by copy/paste, I don't need an index.)

You said:

it feels more like a beating-myself-up session

I feel you man. That can't be right. It can't be *optimal*. That seems certain.

You know, an extension of my idea would pull you out of a notebook too, and place your texts, podcasts, etc., at the "center of attention". This is the idea I've tried to share lately (though I don't know if anyone else needs it): Pull the mind out of the flashcard program, away from thinking that the contents of the cards are your objective, and embrace the whole language or at least the parts selected for you in your chosen textbooks, podcasts, etc. Then the flashcard program prepares daily quizzes for you. Great!

To realmayo: Yes, that very website influenced me. I posted my thoughts about it in the "bigger chunks" thread.

[animal world]

Realmayo, i like your idea to add relevant information to the answer-side to make the character spring to life more. This may be a big help particularly for the characters that refuse to find a permanent home in my mind. Now, why didn't i think of such a simple solution?

Querido, i see SRS programs strictly as memorization tools but as such they are valuable and a real time-saver. With Chinese, i'm hovering between the beginner and intermediate level but i've learned a number of other languages before and rather well. A fair amount of drudgery is involved in learning any language before you arrive at the "real language" stage and achieve discernible results. Until then, it's all sweat equity and little to show for it.

[realmayo]

Haha, I'm sure you would have thought of it before long! My Anki template slowly grew from two fields to six, as I added traditional script, a rarely-used "hint" field for the question, a field with more info on the character or word and example sentences etc, and an audio field. I still only test myself the standard two directions, the other stuff is just for reference....

All Japnese All the Time: it would be interesting to know how many people have been successful sticking strictly with that method (ie to fluency) -- and how good its author's Japanese really is. I think there's also an issue with these "methods" that, whichever one you happen to be using when you finally feel you've cracked a language, is the one you think must be responsible for your progress ... but it need be nothing of the sort.

[imron]

I hope he reads this post and responds by stating how long it took him to become proficient in this method. I tried it the other day and it certainly was a more peaceful approach but it took a long time.

It does take a long time initially, but I think the rewards are worth it, and it does get faster the more you train it (like everything else, the more you practice, the better you get). I can't remember precisely how long it took become proficient as it has been a number of years now. It was probably over the course of a semester or so.

[animal world]

Thanks Imron for your feedback. I think your system is the one that suits me most as i've done meditation quite a bit in the past. Hope to replace paper and pencil with the mind to learn all the strokes of new characters. Of the new characters i've learned with SRS, there are some i readily recognize but wouldn't be able to reproduce exactly. To be honest, i've been rushing a little in the months since SRS in order to make up for lost time during the inefficient approach before. As a bit of an analogy, i know to type blind with all ten fingers, yet would have a heck of a time to tell the order of the alphabet on the keyboard beyond the famous "qwerty." It's odd, and quite fascinating, how some learning becomes automatic yet is actually quite imperfect (typing and driving a car are just two common examples).

I'm now adding appropriate words to new characters, as suggested by Realmayo and with some entries i seem to add a "book." Don't know why but i seem to be a real junkie about Chinese and can't seem to contain myself to adding just one or two helpful examples. So, Querido, i am the last person to advise you on how to simplify your overburdened system with as i'm currently veering into the direction of more-is-better myself.

[querido]

I have *already* simplified and was advising you of that.

But, whatever you choose, good luck.

[Patrick17]

@animal world:

I spent two hours searching the forum, but cannot find the post you are mentioning in your first post of this excellent thread:

I want to thank Imron who, the other day, linked to an old post the describing the meditation/visualization process he follows and that this takes him only 5 sec per character.

Would you be so kind to post a link? Thanks so much and good luck with your studies!

[animal world]

Patrick, I tried to search for Imron's post but couldn't find it either. My post was dated the second half of Oct and referred to Imron's post of around the same time. I do remember that his post referred with a link to an older thread (from a year ago or so) in which Imron made a lengthy post detailing this technique. In case the post in question cannot be found, here is roughly how it works:

1. Look carefully at the character and take in its details.

2. Close your eyes and do several routines to recreate the character in your mind. Visualize the character in its entirety, then take it apart by its major components (radical and such), visualize it from left to right, top to bottom, then visualize it in its entirety again.

So, in essence you both learn the character and learn how to write it (in your head). It helps perhaps to have done meditation in the past. I follow this method sometimes but am still too slow to do this all the time. When i have a lot to do and feel rushed, i stupidly feel i don't have the time to afford this peaceful and effective approach.

Am sorry that this post isn't as eloquent and detailed as Imron's was but maybe Imron or someone else will come along to post the link.

[chrix]

1. Look carefully at the character and take in its details.

2. Close your eyes and do several routines to recreate the character in your mind. Visualize the character in its entirety, then take it apart by its major components (radical and such), visualize it from left to right, top to bottom, then visualize it in its entirety again.

Interesting. That's how I do it too (I've learnt 漢字 from childhood, but in the context of a different language). I read somewhere once that children learning 漢字 actually store the order of muscle movements for each character in the cerebellum, so it would make sense that you would continue visualising the strokes as an adult too...

[keitha]

1. Look carefully at the character and take in its details.

2. Close your eyes and do several routines to recreate the character in your mind. Visualize the character in its entirety, then take it apart by its major components (radical and such), visualize it from left to right, top to bottom, then visualize it in its entirety again

Interesting. This is what I try to do also, but I can never visualize a whole character in my mind. I am able to write it with strokes though.

[imron]

The post in question was probably this one here.

@keitha, if you start practicing from strokes, and then move on to components, then before long you'll able to visualize the character entirely too.

Also of interest, might be my posts on improving speaking, reading and listening and reading speed.

[animal world]

Imron, thanks for chiming in. Over time, I've probably read all of the posts to which you linked above and I've to say that your posts toward improving various aspects of Chinese have always been very well thought out and written in great detail. So, please accept my appreciation for your great contributions to this forum. (This time I've bookmarked your post for future reference).

To keitha and patrick, i can't stress enough in this visualization routine (or any other method of learning characters) to truly focus on the radicals. Invariably, whenever i'm confused between characters it always turns out to be that the character is identical and that only the radicals differ. Often, a radical might give a clue as to the meaning of the character but that's not always the case.