Taiwan's pronunciation of "sh"

[chinesenewbie]

Hi I was curious about something,

how come people say that in Taiwan, they pronounce 'sh' just like 'si' ?

It's definitely not the same! I mean sure they don't curl their tongue like in China but it's NOT the same??

Or am i going crazy? I've always thought this yet I always hear people say that they pronounce it as "si".

Then I watched this video:

and I am even more convinced. Listen to the way he says words like "shi" and "shen me" etc. where you'd normally have 'sh'...

he uses "s" instead of "sh" and it sounds VERY different than Taiwanese mandarin. this dude's pronunciation of the 'sh' I can't stand. Yet I love the way the Taiwanese pronounce 'sh' so clearly there must be difference.

Taiwanese mandarin's "sh" is like a mix between 's' and 'x' IMO.

What do you guys think?

[anonymoose]

You're right. People from many parts of China (mainly the south) pronounce sh like s. This is well-known and has been discussed here many times before.

[renzhe]

Not everyone in Taiwan speaks exactly the same way. You will encounter everything from "si" to a perfect "sh".

Many southern dialects (including Minnanese) don't have sounds like sh, zh and ch, so people learning Mandarin as a second language will have an accent. Exactly how much of an accent, will depend on many factors, including the person's talent for learning languages.

It's hard to generalise. I've recently met a girl from Shenzhen, native Cantonese speaker, who speaks (pronounces) perfect Mandarin with no issues. Then you have people where everything boils down to s,c,z. Then you have the people who can pronounce it properly, but will drop back to s,c,z if they don't pay attention or get lazy.

[Daan]

I agree that here in Taiwan, there is a distinct difference between people who pronouce both 是 and 四 as sì and people where a different initial can be heard if you listen closely, even if it's not the retroflex initial required by official standards.

[liuzhou]

It's not just Taiwan. It's a southern thing, although I've heard it as far north as Xi'an.

Certainly round here (Guangxi) 'si' and 'shi' are virtually indistinguishable in many speakers.

[atitarev]

Not everyone in Taiwan speaks exactly the same way. You will encounter everything from "si" to a perfect "sh".

Yes, exactly. I talked to a Taiwanese person only a few days ago and I wondered how come her "shi and zhi" sounded no different (or almost to my ear) to that of mainland's North - that is retroflex. She sounded even better than on the recordings of fairy-tales I've got. Anyway, I don't know if this can be explained by the education only, perhaps it's to do with the person's background.

My opinion is that standard Mandarin pronunciation goes for Taiwan as well. The reason for that is the way announcers speak, all features commonly ascribed to only the Northern version of Mandarin - retroflex sounds (sh, zh, ch), erhua (儿化) and neutral tones do exist in standard Taiwanese Mandarin. The latter features are used less than they are in mainland China.

If you are curious, check "Elmer" (愛瑪 / 爱玛) (the patchwork elephant) stories for kids produced in Taiwan - they come in bilingual books - English and traditional Chinese with Zhuyin Fuhao and accompanying CD's - English and Mandarin (Taiwan). The retroflex sounds are clearly identifiable, although a bit different from standard Mandarin in China. You can also here -r (儿) and neutral tones used. I actually used the books to introduce my little son to some Chinese The audios are supposed to be teaching Taiwanese children, so there must be people who speak that way, that is similar to the way they speak standard Mandarin in China.

Having said this, standards are very different from the reality.

Taiwanese accent

Recently I have been listening to Taiwanese radio online, and there is a lot of differences between the news broadcaster, show hosts and people calling in. One would speak perfect Mandarin with no difference to what has been broadcasted in CCTV. The other would start showing his/her lazy Taiwanese tongue by dropping off the tongue-rolling or nose sound here and there (plus Taiwanese slangs that you can’t find in the dictionary). Whereas the average general public who calls in would demonstrate what a true blue (or is that green) Taiwanese would sound like with a mix of Taiwanese Mandarin (so called 台灣國語) and Hokkien. 50+ years of Mandarin education pushed by the iron fist of national party in Taiwan has not changed much…

The guy is quoting this site

Do you teach Mandarin with a Chinese accent or Taiwanese accent?

We teach you Mandarin with the standard accent. The truth is, educated people in Mainland China and Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters speak Mandarin with little difference. However, it is true that Taiwanese people in general speak differently from Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters (You might wonder why Taiwanese people in general don't learn the standard Mandarin from their TV or radio broadcasters. Don't ask me, ask your Taiwanese friends :-) ). For example, while educated people in Mainland China and Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters pronounce "to be" as "shir4", Taiwanese people in general pronounce it as "si4".

Our instructors come from Beijing, Shanghai, and Taipei, and they speak Mandarin with standard Mandarin pronunciation. However, in case you would like to learn Mandarin from a Taiwanese instructor, we will supply you with a Taiwanese instructor.

Edited November 4, 2009 at 02:13 AM by atitarev

[Daan]

For example, while educated people in Mainland China and Taiwanese television or radio broadcasters pronounce "to be" as "shir4"

Shome mishtake, shurely? Or has studying in Taiwan left my knowledge of words that can be 兒化ed lacking? I've never heard 是 pronounced as shir4. I've heard 事 pronounced as such, but 是?

[atitarev]

Yes, must be.

[chinesenewbie]

Yeah

iono I just love the way the taiwanese speak mandarin. By this I mean those you see on Taiwan variety shows or dramas.

Taiwan celebs like Jolin Tsai, Da S, Cai Kang Yong, etc...

even the lovely Singaporean Stefanie Sun (Sun Yan Zi) sounds wonderful to my ears despite her having a bit of an accent.

None of those people pronounce "shi4" as "si4"..

They definitely don't use the retroflex "shi4" but they also certainly don't say "si4"...

it's almost like a mix between "shi4" and "si4"...maybe a "xi4" (use x sound but keep the i pronounced like in si4)

iono just my thoughts

Note that I'm referring to what you see on tv, hear on the radio etc. I have taiwanese friends n they don't say si4.

I just never understood why people normally say "in taiwan they pronunce 'sh' as 's'...when in fact it's more like a mix between the two. Definitely not an 's' sound.

In a nutshell, I'm just saying that I noticed they pronounce 是 and 四 differently with 是 being the 'mixed' sound, and 四 being the actual 's' sound.

[renzhe]

I just never understood why people normally say "in taiwan they pronunce 'sh' as 's'...when in fact it's more like a mix between the two. Definitely not an 's' sound.

Oh, some people in Taiwan definitely pronounce it as "si".

As I said, there is a wide range of pronunciations for retroflex initials in the south.

[Lu]

Shome mishtake, shurely? Or has studying in Taiwan left my knowledge of words that can be 兒化ed lacking? I've never heard 是 pronounced as shir4. I've heard 事 pronounced as such, but 是?

In my experience, Taiwanese people have very little clue as to which words can get an -r. They tend to think that people in Beijing speak Beijinghuar, while really a Beijing huar is a Beijing painting, not something you can speak. Shir for to be is an overcorrection.

(Wang Lihong even sings in one song about 'Beijing hua'er'. Seems he never heard a northerner speak Chinese.)

[bhchao]

The difference in pronunciation between Taiwanese and CCTV news anchors is minimal. The accent is very Standard Mandarin. Nowadays only news anchors, the well educated, and people like Teresa Teng (those with 外省人 heritage) speak flawless Standard Mandarin.

People like Jay Chou and the ordinary teenage Taiwanese pop star can't even speak proper Mandarin.

Edited November 8, 2009 at 12:40 AM by bhchao

[bhchao]

This Taiwanese news anchor (張介英)'s Mandarin pronunciation is flawless:

[atitarev]

This Taiwanese news anchor (張介英)'s Mandarin pronunciation is flawless:

That's what has been said, Bhchao, it's flawless from Taiwan's point of view but would be considered accented Mandarin from mainlanders' point of view. si and shi ARE different but "shi" doesn't sound like Northern Mandarin. Sure enough, not many Taiwanese speak like this news anchor, let alone like Teresa Teng.

[calibre2001]

It seems like most folks here prefer the northern accent.

The Taiwanese accent is quite trendy among the youth in mainland china especially the female accent like you hear in the variety shows. Personally i find it more gentle and coquet-ish than the mainland. On 'shi' vs 'si' , the 'h' sound is subtle and maybe that explains the more gentle sound.

[atitarev]

calibre2001, I agree some prefer the Northern accent, if you refer to my posts, I didn't say I prefer Northern Mandarin to Taiwanese Mandarin, although I am more used to it and that's the way I try to speak. I only had mainland China materials and teachers.

[Hofmann]

Taiwan has its own standard, which is different from the mainland's. Differences I can think of are more regular evolution of tones such as in 期 and 績, influence of other languages/dialects such as in 垃圾, less usage of neutral tones such as in 東西, and less usage of 兒化 such as in 小孩 and 名牌.

Phonology is almost the same. The "retroflex" initials of the person speaking here are a bit different from what I'm used to hearing. Perhaps her tongue is farther forward, as if making alveolo-palatal consonants.

I prefer Taiwan's standard, as it's more concise, more conservative, and more regular. Still, I speak the mainland's standard.

[renzhe]

is a very famous Taiwanese singer who pronounces retroflexes just fine.

In fact, this would fully fall within the tolerances of the Mainland standard, I wouldn't even call it a "special, lighter style of retroflex". It's just correct.

As I said, in the south in general, you'll encounter the whole range, depending on a number of factors.

[atitarev]

Great song, Renzhe! Good accent too.

[renzhe]

Yeah, she's awesome.