将construct

[Scoobyqueen]

In the following sentence 将 is used as 把 apparently. I was wondering if the "确立为" can be replaced by any verb or if this is a fixed expression used together with 将. I thought the construct included 确立为 but looking at grammar explanations it doesnt appear to be the case. If not, does the 确立为just refer to the establishment of the company here?

因此，他将name 公司的发展目标确立为"致力于促进汽车领域的科技进步和发展”

[chrix]

Usually they go together because "确立为" usually requires also something that was established, but it is not a construction unique to "确立". 为 is often used in the same way as resultative complements with 成, and these tend to go naturally with 把/将 (as the direct objects in such contexts usually referr to some specific, definite entity, fulfilling one important condition of the 把 construction)...

[renzhe]

AFAIK, 将 and 把 mean the same thing in this context, and you can use both with other verbs too.

I rarely hear 将 spoken, I think it's more formal, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. It might also be regional.

[chrix]

yes, it's formal, it's from 文言文, and it can also express future meaning.

[renzhe]

I was referring to the usage of 将 to mean 把, not as a future marker, which is still relatively common, I feel.

[chrix]

yes, I know, but they both actually come from the same word in 文言文

EDIT: Actually, let me qualify that statement: AFAIK... in 文言文 the word already appears in the future meaning, and there is always a possibility of falling victim to the rebus principle... And you're right the future meaning use is less formal than the 把 construction use.

Edited November 26, 2009 at 01:24 PM by chrix

[Kenny同志]

因此，他将name 公司的发展目标确立为"致力于促进汽车领域的科技进步和发展”

Terrible sentence, I am afraid.

目标 means the same as 致力于 here. And the first 发展is simply redundant. In addition, I don’t think there is any difference between 进步and the second发展.

The meaning of the sentence would be much clearer if put it this way

因此，他将name 公司目标确立为(定为)"促进汽车领域的科技发展”

Or another way

因此，他将“促进汽车领域的科技发展”定为（确定为）name 公司的目标。

It can be further revised as

因此，他将name 公司目标定为“发展汽车科技”。

Or

因此，他将“发展汽车科技”定为name 公司的目标。

more concise, without losing the least of its meaning.

PS: 将（把）某某确立为 to identify sth as sth

to adopt sth as sth

literal English translation of the sentence would be:

Thus, he adopted developing auto technology as the goal of the company.

a somewhat free translation would be

Thus he decided that the company's goal was to develop auto technology.

Edited November 27, 2009 at 01:29 AM by kenny2006woo

[skylee]

kenny2006woo, well done.

PS - though there may be some "nuances" (that I don't understand) lost.

[Kenny同志]

过奖了，不敢当！

[Hofmann]

FYI, in Cantonese, 將 can be used as 把 is used in Mandarin, but putting the object in front of the verb is much less frequent in Cantonese anyway.

[chrix]

Dixerunt Matthews et Yip, p. 144

jēung is the nearest equivalent to the bǎ object structure in Mandarin. Unlike bǎ, however, it is not used with all transitive verbs, but is primarily restricted to cases where motion takes place [...]. It is also applicable in metaphorical cases of movement or removal, such as exchanging places [...]

[Scoobyqueen]

Thanks for the contributions. That really helped explain the point. I havent really used this construct before and if you give a presentation you apparently have to use this instead of 把 (which seems odd since one is saying it rather than writing it).

Also thanks Kenny for making a vast improvement to the awkward sentence .