夠 vs. 够

[Claw]

Why is it that the traditional version of gou4 (enough) is 夠 whereas the simplified version has the elements switched: 够?

[xuechengfeng]

I don't know the answer to this, but I was learning characters in my DeFrancis book today, and on the left hand side it has a blown up version of all the characters which showed 夠 then on the right it has a description and small pictures of the characters which had 够, so I was very confused. All of the lessons demonstrate traditional characters, and only as a supplement are there simplified (which is in the back). I had no idea that they were the simplified/traditional versions, I thought it was just a typo!

[hparade]

isn't the simplified also use 夠? i think 够 is a variant of 夠 which is rarely used now?

[mph]

If it means anything...

Pure Big5 fonts contain only the 夠 trad form.

Pure GB fonts only have an entry form 够 form.

So I guess pure GB wallers are forced to use 够, and vice versa.

As to why one is simp and one is trad I would really like to know as well.

mph

[Lu]

In my first year I only learned fanti, and I learned the two as two varieties of the same character. Therefore, and because both have exactely the same number of strokes, I don't think it's fanti/jianti.

[skylee]

According to this website, the characters above are variants of 夠.

[yonglan]

Well, I checked 形音義綜合大字典, and the following is what it says.

It lists 夠 as the main character (goes back to 小篆) and says that 够 is just an alternate.

Same sort of thing with simplified 汇 versus regular 匯‧ 匯，which goes back to 小篆 ，also has an alternate form (can't type it on this computer) which has 'three dots water' on the outside, like the simplified form. I had a teacher in Taiwan who wrote it this way.

Then there's 詠 which is simplified as 咏‧ A little less clear cut since in 金文 it's 咏 (well actually the 口 is on the right), but from 小篆 forward it's 詠‧

Probably some others.

Is this what you meant by why?

Sky, thanks for the cool website

[Claw]

To clarify... I noticed this when I saw that the Big5 encoding only had 夠 and the GB encoding only had 够; so all traditional text on computers used 夠 while simplified text used 够.

I know people who write (using a pen, not a computer) in traditional characters basically always write 夠. Do people who use simplified characters write 夠 or 够 usually when writing with a pen?

[shibo77]

I've only seen 够 for the simplified version. Never the other one, and I can't type the other one. This is also true of writing, I have only seen people writing 够.

-Shibo

[Claw]

Interesting... so I guess when the simplified characters were devised, they settled on the 够 variant, and simplified writers have followed suit ever since.

[mph]

Another strange traditional simplified pair is 別 and 别

別 si traditional... Big5 fonts only have this one

别 is simplified... GB fonts only have this one

With this pair the simplified character has the extra crossing of the vertical stroke.

mph

[Claw]

Interesting... I never noticed that before. Do traditional and simplified writers handwrite 別/别 differently too?

I always write it as 别, but that's probably because my old teacher always wrote it that way (and he always wrote in simplified).

[skylee]

I didn't notice it before either. But I always write 夠. And it is always 別 for me (i.e. the lower left part is not a real 力, but is like the lower part of 方).

[hparade]

they are all variants that already exist i think, just that the simplified and traitional adopt the different versions as the standard

[yonglan]

As far as Big5 vs. GB goes I can type both 夠 and 够 as well as 別 and 别　in English Windows using traditional Chinese input, but only 够 and 别 using simplified input.

[Jose]

I think there are a few cases where the simplification process led to the adoption of a lesser-used variant. Besides the cases already mentioned (夠/够 and 別/别), I can also think of 角. I can only type the simplified form on this computer, but the traditional form usually has 土 inside, so the number of strokes is the same, but the stroke order is slightly different. The same happens with 解, etc. Another one is 没, which is written with a 刀 component in the upper right corner in traditional characters.

There are also a few cases where the simplified character has just one stroke less, like 者, which often (but not always) has an extra stroke in traditional fonts. Also, 差 and 着 have one stroke more in the traditional form. I think it was Ian Lee who once mentioned the 奥 character as another example of a character that has only one more stroke in the traditional version.

An interesting case is the character 吊. I always write it with a 口 at the top whether I am writing in trad or in simp, but I've noticed that traditional character fonts often use a variant that has 厶 at the top. This must be the only case where a traditional character can have fewer strokes than the simplified version!

By the way, the interesting thing about the 夠/够 character that motivated this thread is that the order of the components can be reversed to give two alternative forms of the same character. I was wondering if there are any other similar cases. I have been thinking for a while and I have come up with only one other case: 飙 and 飚. This case is also weird by its own right because the two variants co-exist in simplified characters. My dictionary lists 飚 as the individual biao1 entry, but then uses 飙 in the entry 狂飙. Traditional fonts, however, seem to include only the one with the wind on the right.

(I don't know why I'm getting the traditional form for 飙 when I copy and paste from NJStar in this Spanish Windows 98 system. I wanted to show both variants, or just simplified, for consistency's sake, but there seem to be characters that turn into traditional as soon as I paste them while others, like 角 before, turn into simplified . Anyway, I hope the characters can be read correctly by others).

It would be interesting to know what other examples there are where two variants differ just by the arrangement of the same basic parts.

[Claw]

An interesting case is the character 吊. I always write it with a 口 at the top whether I am writing in trad or in simp, but I've noticed that traditional character fonts often use a variant that has 厶 at the top. This must be the only case where a traditional character can have fewer strokes than the simplified version!

I don't know which variant you're talking about, but I do know that 弔 is a traditional variant of 吊. Again, it has fewer strokes than the simplified version.

[Jose]

An interesting case is the character 吊. I always write it with a 口 at the top whether I am writing in trad or in simp, but I've noticed that traditional character fonts often use a variant that has 厶 at the top. This must be the only case where a traditional character can have fewer strokes than the simplified version!

I don't know which variant you're talking about, but I do know that 弔 is a traditional variant of 吊. Again, it has fewer strokes than the simplified version.

I think the printed version of Rick Harbaugh's dictionary uses that variant in either the big or the small font. I think that's where I first saw it, if I remember correctly. I don't have the book at hand so I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, I'm sure I've seen that variant before, and also, I've just remembered, a similar one for 强.

[Claw]

I just looked up Rick Harbaugh's dictionary and only 弔 and 吊 are shown, not the one with 厶 on top. However, the 強 and 强 variants are shown.

[Jose]

Claw,

Maybe it was 强, and not 吊, which I saw in Rick Harbaugh's dictionary in the variant form then.

I still think I've seen a variant for 吊 with 厶 at the top somewhere. Can anyone confirm if such a variant exists?