Cantonese without Cantonese in it :P

[trusmis]

I've just started to self-taught Cantonese and I find that most online material teach things like hai (係) that is supposed to be super-basic level vocabulary and find it everywhere

For instance, Cantonese wikipedia is full of those.

But on the other hand, listening to songs and reading the lyrics I can not find any of that supposed basic vocabulary

For instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og696MpmmeM&NR=1

http://www.chlyrics.net/idx.php/act-lrc/sid-583/did-3683/lid-38281

In fact, I have not found any specific for Cantonese character in any of the lyrics of that artist.

For instance they use 這 (pronounced like je) but I haven't seen 呢

There are two kinds of Cantonese?

Edited March 6, 2010 at 07:31 AM by trusmis

[wushijiao]

That Wang Fei song just looks to be a song sung in Cantonese that has Mandarin grammar/lyrics.

Many words that are not common in spoken Cantonese, like say 的, they can still pronounce.

[Hofmann]

Many modern songs are sung in Mandarin...with Cantonese pronunciation. Awkward? Apparently not for them.

[Caidanbi]

Yeah, most modern songs are like that. The only songs I've seen actual Cantonese in are rap songs, or the rap parts of songs. Otherwise, they all seem to be written like in Mandarin, but with Cantonese pronunciation, this is normal.

[trusmis]

So my plan of learning vocabulary hearing songs will not work

I find it weird. I am sure they would not understand me if I jsut pronounce mandarin sentences like cantonese when speaking

[skylee]

I am sure they would not understand me if I jsut pronounce mandarin sentences like cantonese when speaking

Why are you sure?

[Hofmann]

They will understand you, but they will find it weird, but not if you're singing, which is why I find them weird. Someone should sing in Cantonese using Mandarin pronunciation just to shove it in their face.

[trien27]

Have you listened to songs by Jin? He's an ABC rapper.*

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Jin+&search_type=&aq=f

Most of the songs are based on Mandarin, because they were thinking of the audience in China which has a much larger population, compared to Hong Kong, etc... Even though Hong Kong is now a part of China, the Cantonese spoken in Guangdong province [spoken with Cantonese, but the written words are based on Mandarin] and Hong Kong [spoken Cantonese, written Cantonese has Chinese words+English words+invented words, used for Cantonese, but doesn't exist in Mandarin, usually with the 口 radical+phonetic.] are very very different in vocabularies. Plus, there are many other speakers with a variety of accents depending on where the speaker's ancestral hometown or ancestors were from. Cantonese people were the first to migrate out of China , but then followed by Fujianese also migrated to south of China into Malaysia, & Singapore [From Fujian province], Thailand [From either Fujian or Guangdong provinces], Vietnam [originally migrated from Guangdong province, but now a lot of people from Taiwan also have a lot of investments there.], etc... then to the USA, etc...

Most of the time, it also depends on WHERE the composer and / or lyricist are from.

Note: Some songs are based on Chinese poems from various periods, so it might or might not be interpreted with Modern Chinese words.

Singing is not the same as speaking, sometimes they have to change the tones of the words to match the tempo, rhyme, or feel of the line of the lyrics/poem.

Saying that it's Mandarin but sung with Cantonese might be wrong:

眉頭仍聚滿密雲**

仍可反映你心

雲 = yun in Mandarin, it's "Wun" in Cantonese.

心 = xin/hsin in Mandarin, but it's "Sum" in Cantonese.

"Wun" rhymes somewhat with "Sum", than does "Yun" with "Xin/Hsin".

*ABCs = American born Chinese. -s = plurality due to English grammar.

**Source: 暗湧歌詞 @ 玩具歌詞 @ 王菲歌詞

That's why you'll find that Cantonese ABCs, CBC, etc can understand TVB dramas, can sort of understand news in Cantonese and cannot understand Cantonese songs.

What happened to the BBCs? You have the ABCs[American Born Chinese: -s is for people to know that it's more than one person due to English grammar.] & CBCs [Canadian Born Chinese]. BBCs don't count? BBCs are British Born Chinese.

No one speaks standard written Chinese with a Cantonese pronunciation.

You're wrong! They do speak standard written Chinese with a Cantonese pronunciation in Guangdong province.

Edited March 7, 2010 at 05:04 PM by trien27

[trusmis]

In fact there is a Mandarin version of the song I originally posted.

So I guess both say mostly the same but lyrics changed so it rythms better.

Anyone knows of any resource (outside from courses teaching the basics) where I can get both the audio and the hanzi transcription ?

That was my plan with the songs. As I can speak some Mandarin, I thought I would easily pick up Cantonese thought them, just learn some pronunciations and basic grammar and would be good enough.

That they use a different language for songs than for real world speaking really intrigues me.

[missbrokensmile]

Yeah, the thing is, spoken Cantonese is just that, only spoken. It's never just solely written down - perhaps blogs (and rap songs) might be written in Cantonese Chinese but that's about it. Any "Cantonese" written down is basically the same as standard Mandarin that is written down. Though of course, you have your odd Cantonese character found in society.

Like you and others have said, songs are written down in standard Chinese (that can be understood all over China) but sung with Cantonese pronunciation. So, if you did attempt to copy and speak what is said in Cantonese songs, it would sound very awkward, and not really correct. Though, there are some exceptions to songs, where they're sung and written to spoken Cantonese, ie. The theme song of TVB drama, War of In-laws II.

No one speaks standard written Chinese with a Cantonese pronunciation.

Sort of a rough measure:

- Songs in Cantonese are sung in standard written Chinese with Cantonese pronunciation

- News in Cantonese combines spoken Cantonese and written Chinese with Cantonese pronunciation

- TVB dramas use spoken Cantonese

When people learn Cantonese, it's usually learning spoken Cantonese - very rarely written Cantonese, which is what songs are sung in. Which is why you find you cannot understand the songs.

That's why you'll find that Cantonese ABCs, CBC, etc can understand TVB dramas, can sort of understand news in Cantonese and cannot understand Cantonese songs.

So, I suggest, if you really want to learn spoken Cantonese at a more higher level, shadow/copy/learn off English subtitled TVB dramas. Also, those Cantonese phrasebooks are pretty good. Not perhaps for grammar, but for pronunciation and immediacy, they're good as they usually come with a CD or downloadable mp3. I quite like the Lonely Planet Cantonese phrasebook.

There isn't much material out there to learn spoken Cantonese (most of it is quite outdated and confusing), but there is this HK publisher who does publish a few books: http://www.green-woodpress.com/

[trusmis]

Thank you very much.

Very interesting and clarifying reading. Now I understand it clearly.

I will finish the basic stuff I have found around in Internet and then buy a book.

Dramas will be too difficult to grasp with only the basics.

[Caidanbi]

I'd recommend using dramas too, even if you are just beginning. Just make sure they have English subtitles. It will help with your pronunciation, you will learn new words, and I've found that the grammar makes more sense when I hear someone use it in a non-textbook situation. ^-^

[trusmis]

Then the obvious questions are:

- What drama do you recommend? I guess you have some favorite ;)

- Where to watch them? Youtube? A quick search right now revealed quite a few subtitled movies.

Just check this user: http://www.youtube.com/user/mskrider Amazing.

[Caidanbi]

Hmm, I like to watch a lot of the wuxia ones, like the ones based on Jin Yong's books. There are quite a few, I'll try to look up the titles later. But they are fun to watch. I usually just buy DVDs of the ones I want, but that can get expensive. I'm not really sure where you could watch them online, though. Maybe someone else here could help you with that... Youtube probably has some.

[happyending777]

I am a native Cantonese speaker,the best way to learn Cantonese is by watching HongKong TV series,the drama of TVB and ATV station are very popular here.

[snifsmak]

Quote:

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They will understand you, but they will find it weird, but not if you're singing, which is why I find them weird. Someone should sing in Cantonese using Mandarin pronunciation just to shove it in their face.

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Actually that can't be easily done. Some Cantonese words don't exist in Mandarin. Intriguing idea though and would love to hear.

I'm a cantonese speaker and would like to add that while Cantonese and Mandarin are quite different, in some ways you can consider Cantonese as slangs -- which explains why we're taught to write in "proper, ie. Mandarin Chinese" in school. That's also why most lyrics look more mandarin than cantonese.

Apart from TV dramas, you can also watch movies instead. It's shorter so you can watch it repeatedly and try and grasp the language. And they usually have better subtitles I reckon? A friend of mine chose "In the Mood for Love" cos if all things fail she still gets to look at Tony Leung. Just pick one to your liking!

[Hofmann]

Some Cantonese words don't exist in Mandarin.

...and some Mandarin words don't exist in Cantonese, but somehow they find a reading for them when they read it. For example, how do you read this character: 嗎? It is how ma is written in Mandarin. It doesn't exist in Cantonese. It corresponds to 無 in Cantonese (and Middle Chinese), but when reading Vernacular Chinese, Cantonese speakers somehow find the reading "maa3."

An example of the same thing in Mandarin is the Cantonese perfective particle 著, pronounced zo2 in Standard Cantonese and often written as 咗. A Mandarin speaker seeing 咗 would probably say something like "zuo3."

in some ways you can consider Cantonese as slangs

It probably isn't what you meant, but Cantonese is not slang. It is a language (and I assume most languages have slang). All who go to school in China are taught to write in Vernacular Chinese. Vernacular Chinese uses the grammar and vocabulary of Mandarin (北方話). To them, it is thought of as "the written form." From that, there is the widespread misconception that the written form of any Chinese language is Vernacular Chinese. None who don't speak Mandarin are ever taught to write in their own language. Unable to write in their own language, those who don't speak Mandarin only write in Vernacular Chinese. If they ever try to write their own language, they lack in written vocabulary, and so they make up characters or use wrong characters. The appearance of written text in their language, then, appears crude. Then, in comparison to Vernacular Chinese, their own language looks crude.

[mcgau]

They will understand you, but they will find it weird, but not if you're singing, which is why I find them weird. Someone should sing in Cantonese using Mandarin pronunciation just to shove it in their face.

The interesting contrary is that if anyone sings in spoken Cantonese, it can sound too weird --- or too vulgar to many ears.

Sam Hui is one of the pioneers in shaping modern Cantopop in vulgar forms (半斤八两, 學生哥) but he's also a master in writing lyrics which resembles a verse in ancient china. (無情夜冷風). After him, it seems that the cantopop goes to the middle way, neither too vulgar as slangs, nor too classical as a Cantonese opera written by Tang Dit Sang (唐滌生).

A question: After Sam Hui, is there any famous cantonpop singer who sings in spoken Cantonese? I can think of Chow Yun Fat, Wong Chou Sang, but all of them are remembered as a prominent actor more than a singer. Any other?

[Altair]

Hoffman, I like your summary very much, but have a few comments.

Unable to write in their own language, those who don't speak Mandarin only write in Vernacular Chinese. If they ever try to write their own language, they lack in written vocabulary, and so they make up characters or use wrong characters. The appearance of written text in their language, then, appears crude. Then, in comparison to Vernacular Chinese, their own language looks crude.

I think this is true, but that Cantonese is in a different place than dialects like Taiwanese and Shanghainese. Since people have been trying to write vernacular Cantonese for quite a while, de facto standards seem to have become established for the basic vocabulary, even if they are historically questionable. In other dialects, it seems from what I have read that every individual writer does his or her own thing and readers are often left guessing as to what word is meant.

As for "crudity," I think a decent analogy for English would be writing things like: "I'm gonna see ya." This is fine as dialog for a wrap song, but might cause riots if it appeared in front page articles in the New York or London Times. While acceptable in a text message, such writing would traditionally be a little too crude even for a personal letter to a family member. On the other hand, actually articulating "I am going to see you" with no contractions would be very strange in normal life, at least in the U.S.

[trien27]

"I'm gonna see ya." This is fine as dialog for a wrap song, but might cause riots if it appeared in front page articles in the New York or London Times.

It might or might not be the New York Times, but I've seen writing like this on newspaper headlines. And it didn't cause any sort of riots.