Traditional form of 症

[skylee]

I don't really use my simplified version of 現代漢語詞典 much as I have bought its traditional version. I now put it under my PC monitor at office. Yesterday I happened to have to use it for reference of the word 證 and I discovered that the dictionary lists 證 as the traditional form of 症 (see picture). I was so very surprised.

So when I went home I checked the word again in the traditional version of the dictionary. In the traditional version the head word is in traditional form and the simplified form is put in brackets. And the dictionary says 症 (證). It is all very confusing. It is clear that 症 is a traditional character and 證 is not a simplified character. Something is not right.

I mean I use the traditional script every day and I am pretty familiar with the different meanings (at least the modern meanings) of the two words. And I think it is clear that the traditional form of 症 is still 症, not 證.

I suppose this is why it is sometimes difficult to type 症 using hanyu pinyin-based input method when I have chosen the traditional output (because it is not in the traditional set of characters the programmes).

Views?

Edited April 16, 2010 at 12:09 AM by skylee

[Glenn]

Strange. But, I did find something under 证 at 百度:

〈名〉

1.

通“症”。病症 [disease;illness]

然后先生之言,为思陵对证之药也。—— 清· 黄宗羲《子刘子行状》

2.

假借为“徵”。今亦用为證验字。证据 [evidence;proof]

索证正不在远。——[英]赫胥黎著、 严复译《天演论》

Does that help? It doesn't help me much, other than to say it's used for 症. Still seems weird to me.

[trien27]

Might be a typo on the editor's part. I know dictionaries are supposed to be near to perfect, but I do find many typos in some of them.

It says to look for zhēng on page 1603. What did you see when you went to that page?

1.通“症”。病症 [disease;illness]

然后先生之言,为思陵对证之药也。—— 清· 黄宗羲《子刘子行状》

It's from the Qing dynasty that this is used: 清· 黄宗羲《子刘子行状》

Maybe the dictionary lists most of the usages even those in the past?! This might not be used today?

Since the above quote says Qing dynasty, I tried the online version of Kangxi dictionary but the entry under 證 there's no 證症通 or other similar wordings, but there is 與徴通, meaning 證 is interchangeable with 徴.

症 is not a valid entry in Kangxi dictionary.

通“症”。= they are used interchangeably. Not that 證 is the Traditional form. Sometimes in video captions, I see 證 written as 証 when transcribed back from 证. I know it's an attempt to transcribe back to Traditional form in the wrong way: 证 = 証? No. 证 in Simplified should be 證 in Traditional. 登, dēng, is the phonetic of 證, but as time passed, the pronunciation gradually changed into something totally different than the original.

My Cantonese dictionary has 症 as the simplification of 癥, not 證.

証 is in 康熙, however. I can't read what it says, though.

In online version of Kangxi dictionary, from Zhanguoce, 証's meaning is "correcting someone's words" according to the example given which is similar to "It's to state your opinion and correct mistakes." like your quote from Japanese. Shuowen says it means 諫也, "To advise frankly, (usually one's senior)". Also a person's name. The rest of the meanings are different versions of "fanqie" for 証.

Edited April 17, 2010 at 12:22 AM by trien27

[chrix]

Yep, the MOE dictionary has it too. So traditionally 證 has also been used for "symptom", I don't think the meaning is so far apart, maybe with the rise of modern medicine people felt they needed to differentiate the meanings by creating a separate character. I don't have my Classical Chinese dictionaries with me, but maybe someone else (Daan? ) can check their Classical dictionaries to see what they say about this...

[Glenn]

Well, 証 is actually a separate older character, according to 漢字源 (a Japanese character dictionary). So in that regard it's not so simple as it seems. Under 解字 is has this to say:

１）（⇨證）会意兼形声。「言＋（音符）登」で、事実を上司の耳にのせる→上申すること。転じて、事実を申し述べて、裏付けるの意となる。

２）（⇨証）会意兼形声。「言＋（音符）正（ただす）」。意見を述べて、誤りを正すこと。今は、證の常用漢字字体として用いられる。

My translation:

證 is an ideographic phono-semantic character. It's 言 + 登 phonetic, and it's to tell facts to a superior, or report to a superior. From there it gained the meaning of reporting facts to substantiate some claim.

証 is an ideographic phono-semantic character. It's 言 + 正 phonetic. It's to state your opinion and correct mistakes. Nowadays it's used as the common-use character form for 證.

It also says this:

４）（名）病気であることを裏付ける実際の病状。同⇨症「証候（＝症候）」

4) (Noun) The actual condition that proves an illness. Same as 症.

Not a Classical Chinese dictionary (or even a Chinese one), I realize... So it looks like 症 is a newer character then, eh? 証 is in 康熙, however. I can't read what it says, though.

[skylee]

I am not really interested in old references. I think my questions is - is it true that in the event that people in the PRC want to write 病症 (zheng4) in traditional Chinese, they would write 病證?

Edited April 16, 2010 at 06:06 AM by skylee
Remove incorrect information. 症 (zheng1) is the simplified form of 癥, not 徵.

[trien27]

I think my questions is - is it true that in the event that people in the PRC want to write 病症 (zheng4) in traditional Chinese, they would write 病證?

I'd think so. They always confuse 發 with 髮 when converting back to Traditional from Simplified via 发. I always see "hair" as 頭發 from 头发!!! I somehow find it very funny.

[Glenn]

I once saw 關系 written in a Chinese article. I mentioned to a girl from the mainland that it was strange that it would be 系 and not 係, given that Japanese is 関係. She said it's because the Chinese created the hanzi, so that was the older usage (or she at least hinted at that), but when I talked to a girl from Hong Kong about it she said it was wrong and I should ignore it. My point is, some people probably would, although this may not be the best evidence to use to make that point.

Just saw trien27's response during my preview. That's pretty interesting...

[vampire]

I think my questions is - is it true that in the event that people in the PRC want to write 病症 (zheng4) in traditional Chinese, they would write 病證?

most would still write 病症, 病證 would lead to something like 生病的證明

btw illness/disease is 病症(病症/病癥), 症癥 are the same in traditional right? and symptom is 病征(病徵)

[skylee]

and symptom is 病征(病徵)

You are right. I have already amended my #6.

[Daan]

So traditionally 證 has also been used for "symptom", I don't think the meaning is so far apart, maybe with the rise of modern medicine people felt they needed to differentiate the meanings by creating a separate character. I don't have my Classical Chinese dictionaries with me, but maybe someone else (Daan? ) can check their Classical dictionaries to see what they say about this...

The simplified Chinese edition of the 古汉语常用字字典 says:

症 zhēng（trad. 癥）病名。腹內结块。注意：古代『癥结』的『癥』不写作『症』。症（zhèng）是病症，意义和『癥』都不相同，古代『病症』作『證』。现『癥』简化为『症』。

证 zhèng （trad. 證）5. 病症。这个意义后来写作『症』。

症 is not listed in this classical Chinese dictionary. Interesting.

[Hofmann]

王力古漢語字典 says

證

（一）證實，驗證。（二）證據，憑據。（三）用事實規諫。[備考]（一）效法。（二）病症。後來作“症”。

症

“證”的俗體字。〔症候〕病。[同源字]證，症，徵。病徵的症古作證，三字同源。

証

諫。直言糾正。

I'm guessing many dictionaries (or users) confuse "standard in the ROC" as "orthodox." They are different, e.g. 爲 is orthodox and 為 is standard in the ROC. Many call them both 繁體字, but actually 繁體字 is a fuzzy term referring to unSimplified (with a capital S) characters.

[xiangruyimo]

Modern written Chinese in Taiwan uses 症 (症狀/症状, small difference) when talking about symptoms and diseases, as far as I know.

However, when you talk about the most troublesome, nagging part of a problem (問題的癥結/问题的症结), you use the more complex form.

Simplified doesn't discriminate between these two uses, IIRC. Go team.