Characters Which Underwent The Greatest Simplification...

[renzhe]

头 (頭) is another good one.

無 -> 无

That's not really a simplification, though. 无 is older, if I'm not mistaken. But it's always tricky with threads like this one -- where do you draw the line. Perhaps the title should be "biggest difference in stroke count between a simple and complex variant" or something similar, to make it more inclusive.

Then we could accept 一 too

[Shi Tong]

Is that so? Explain this then:

hahaha!

I still consider this as adoption of English "characters" into Chinese script, rather than actual Chinese! That's like saying that Chinese people write 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc in English and claiming that it's Chinese.. because they DO do this ALL the time! ;)

Then we could accept 一 too

nnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvveeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink:

[anonymoose]

I still consider this as adoption of English "characters" into Chinese script, rather than actual Chinese! That's like saying that Chinese people write 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc in English and claiming that it's Chinese.. because they DO do this ALL the time! ;)

I disagree.

Firstly, you'll notice that 〇 is different from 0 - it is not a zero.

Secondly, 〇 can be found in the dictionary under ling. Digits 1,2,3 and so on are not in the dictionary. (At least that is the case with my 新世纪汉英大词典.)

Also, take a look at this and this.

[Hofmann]

That's not really a simplification, though. 无 is older, if I'm not mistaken.

It's an old variant, but 無 is older.

[Shi Tong]

Anonymoose, I know that 0 is used in substitution for 零 in Chinese. I know it's found all in the print media, etc, and it's in books. It's used largely to describe the year of publication of things etc, but even in the Wictionary entry you showed me, they called it a Translingual word, and I assume this means that it's a word which has come from outside of the Chinese system and is now adopted by the Chinese language.

I know that 12345 etc are not used in Chinese as a dictionary entry either, but most people write 12345 when they're quickly noting down numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if they were properly adopted at some point because of this.

Does this mean that they're actually Chinese words though? I'm not sure it does. I actually think that written numbers and digital representations of numbers are quite different anyway (like writing one and 1 for example) and I think that using 0 as a zero is a non literal form of communication of an idea of a number.

So.. yes, 0 is a "Chinese" word or digit, in that it can be found in the dictionary and in a lot of print media, but IMO, it's still not really an actual Chinese character from within the Chinese character system.

Next thing you'll tell me that the word 温泉 has been simplified to the sign which they use at the side of the road to show people there is a hot spring, and that sure aint Chinese, but people know what it means! ;)

[Hofmann]

Translingual definitions are across many languages.

[trien27]

壹 -> 一

there's also a variant: 弌

零 → 〇

Due to Chinese being a decimal system, there was initially no need to have a place holder.

"〇 is a common informal way to represent zero, but the traditional 零 is more often used in schools."

[Only when using rod numerals (to teach arithmetic in ancient China on something similar to a chessboard) is there a need for a place holder: at first represented by an empty space, than a little later, it was represented by -, then finally, the 〇 based on Arabic numeral 0, is used as a placeholder, or "零".]

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals#Characters_used_to_represent_numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_numerals#Rod_numerals

[jbradfor]

Due to Chinese being a decimal system, there was initially no need to have a place holder.

HUH? Isn't the Arabic number system also decimal? [it certainly isn't hexadecimal.] And it has a place holder.

[renzhe]

It's an old variant, but 無 is older.

Thanks. Good to know.

[trien27]

 It has also amused me that Cantopop star Janice Vidal is 衛蘭 in Hong Kong, but 卫兰 on the mainland.

15:3

20:5

Cantopop? I don't even listen to her.

She's not even Chinese. 衛/卫 = an approximate of her last name "Vidal" taking only the first syllable, which is totally wrong. There are Chinese people with the last name 衛/卫. By her management company giving her that last name 衛/卫, will confuse a lot of people, especially those who's real Chinese surname = 衛/卫. "Hong Kong people of Filipino descent" is what Wikipedia calls her.

[liuzhou]

She's not even Chinese ...

That is totally irrelevant. The point is the simplification.

[skylee]

She's not even Chinese.

She is part-Chinese. IIRC her father is Filipino and her mother is Korean/Chinese. She has a very sweet voice. And I agree with liuzhou that it is totally irrelevant.

[xiaocai]

Does 體 count?

[Glenn]

I thought of that one too, but it's from 23 to 7, which isn't as good as 32 to 6 (IIRC). Plus wasn't 体 an older character that got replaced with 體 later on? Is that why you asked if it counted? It's still a major one, though. Were 聲 to 声, 醫 to 医, and 藝 to 艺 already mentioned? I think the last one may have been.

[Ed Log]

Will the replacement of characters ever happen?

Pinyin was the product of a heated debate to reform the language

Mark O'Neill

SCMP May 30, 2010

One scholar, Guo Moruo, went further. "Simplified characters are only a product of the transitional period. If China resolutely and definitely moves in the same direction as other written languages of the world, i.e. phoneticisation, then, after this aim has been realised, the use of Chinese characters will, like Classical Greek and Latin and Sanskrit, be limited to a small number of specialists."

In other words, the first step would be a phonetic system and simplified characters and, in the long term, the disappearance of characters, except for scholars. In Japan, there had been a similar debate after the Meiji restoration in 1868. Many argued that the Japanese language, with three different forms of writing, was an obstacle to modernisation and catching up with the west. One scholar even proposed that they abandon the language completely and adopt French instead.

In 1692, a French Jesuit who had returned to Europe after studying in China concluded that the complexity of the characters "was the source of ignorance of Chinese". Author Lu Xun went further, saying: "Unless we get rid of characters, China will perish."

Most people 'love' characters but they were really just a practical communication tool to allow people who spoke different languages to communicate with each other and be controlled by a central government. Can't modern technology allow for them to be replaced with a new more complex and accurate phonetic system? Or given the Big 5 or similar systems why is there a need to simplify?

[Hofmann]

If Chinese characters are replaced with an alphabet or something, it will not occur for a very long time.

Someone thought there was a need to simplify Chinese characters because lots of people were illiterate. They tried, and their try was adopted by all of the mainland. Meanwhile, literacy rates increased, but as you should know, correlation doesn't imply causation.

[Ed Log]

If Chinese characters are replaced with an alphabet or something, it will not occur for a very long time.

Someone thought there was a need to simplify Chinese characters because lots of people were illiterate. They tried, and their try was adopted by all of the mainland. Meanwhile, literacy rates increased, but as you should know, correlation doesn't imply causation.

wasn't it was the introduction of Pinyin that allowed for huge jumps in literacy and the development of a common spoken Chinese language? If Pinyin was slightly more complex then perhaps it Characters would gradually die out. The fact that too many phonetic spellings are the same means PinYin will never succeed and it has probably shaped the spoken common language to follow pinyin pronunciation rather than the subtle differences that probably did exist between similar sounding words a long time ago.

[Hofmann]

I think educational reform was the biggest factor, among many, including Hanyu Pinyin, Vernacular Chinese, and people calling illiterates literate.

[atitarev]

廣 → 广 (guǎng)

(14 : 3)

I don't know if you count these:

壹 → 一

零 → 〇

as real simplifications but the winner (so far) is:

廠 → 厂 (chǎng)

(15 : 2)

[Ed Log]

what is the 'true' literacy rate now?