Please help.. how to pronounce..?

[Alveranter]

Using the Yale transctiption of cantonese, the initials j (as in jeui = to chase) and ch (as in chim = to sign) , exactly how are they pronounced? Do they have mandarin equivalents?? Just by listening to the recordings, I just can't figure it out.. could be any sound to me.. Please help me with this one..

[Claw]

The chi in chim sounds somewhat like qi in Mandarin Hanyu Pinyin. The j is somewhat between the zh and z in pinyin.

Click on the sound icon in the following links to get the pronounciation of each one:

jeui1 (Yale) / zeoi1 (Jyutping): http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B0l

chim1 (Yale) / cim1 (Jyutping): http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%C3%B1

[Alveranter]

thanks Claw.. you're always there for me =)

you say J in yale transcription is somewhere between zh and z in pinyin.. but z and zh are quite different.. is it the same sound as the "g" in George in english then?

[Claw]

Hmm... I'm not really a phonology expert so I'm not completely sure. I just go by what it sounds like to me... maybe it's more in between z and j in pinyin.

I guess it can be very similar to the G in George, however even English speakers may pronounce this differently depending on their dialect/accent. Some speakers may speak the G with rounded lips and their tongue lying at the bottom of the mouth, but some may speak it with unrounded lips with their tongue against their teeth and pulling it back as the consonant is spoken. The Cantonese j is more similar to the latter.

[Alveranter]

hm.. is J and Ch an unaspirated/aspirated pair, like for instance zh and ch in pinyin? Thanks anyway.. I think it's easier to figure out by listening to the recordings now when I know approximately how it should be..

[Quest]

Using the Yale transctiption of cantonese, the initials j (as in jeui = to chase) and ch (as in chim = to sign) , exactly how are they pronounced? Do they have mandarin equivalents?? Just by listening to the recordings, I just can't figure it out.. could be any sound to me.. Please help me with this one..

追 between pinyin z and j, 签 between pinyin c and q.

[Alveranter]

found this discussion that deals with this issue.. it's a bit complicated though.. seems like the sound can vary pretty much from person to person.. can you get anything out of it??

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/topic-1-4674-4674.htm

[Claw]

Yeah... I think the best description is that the Yale j is basically between pinyin z and j, and the Yale ch is between c and q.

The IPA transcription for pinyin:

z = ts (unvoiced alveo-palatal affricate)

j = tʃ (unvoiced aveolar affricate)

c = ts' (unvoiced alveo-palatal affricate + aspiration)

q = tʃ' (unvoiced alveolar affricate + aspiration)

(I don't know if you can see the ʃ character, but it looks like an italics f without the the crossbar, or like the calculus integral sign, if you're math inclined.)

From the discussion you linked, it appears that Cantonese will go between ts and tʃ (for j) or ts' and tʃ' (for ch) depending on the vowel following the consonant.* However, from the discussion there doesn't seem to be a total agreement about the vowels with which they occur. But because they occur in complementary distribution, native Cantonese speakers probably won't make a difference between the two when listening, so you won't be "wrong" if you only use one of them.

If you listen to native speakers carefully though, you can probably hear when they use the aveolar and when they use the alveo-palatal (also called postaveolar). But there may be some that only use one and not the other (and for those that do, I think using just the aveolar is more common -- I guess it depends on the speaker since there are different Cantonese dialects/accents as well).

...hope you understood that... I found it difficult to explain as well.

* Here's an excerpt from Basic Cantonese by Yip and Matthews (I added the characters):

The affricates j and ch are probably the most difficult of the initial consonants. They are distinguished by aspiration: ch is accompanied by a breath of air while j is not. There are two rather different pronunciations for each consonant, depending on the following vowel:

(i) Before the front vowels i, yu and eu or eui they are alveo-palatal, [tʃ] and [tʃ'] respectively, formed with the tongue touching both the alveolar ridge and the palate:

jī 知 know

jyū 豬 pig

jēui 追 chase

chī 黐 to stick

chyūn 村 village

chēui 吹 to blow

In these cases the sounds are fairly close to their English counterparts as in 'June' and 'choose'.

(ii) In all other cases they are aveolar, [ts] and [ts'] respectively, formed at the front of the mouth (like d and t) at the alveolar ridge just behind the teeth:

jā 揸 to drive

johng 撞 to crash

chàh 茶 tea

cho 錯 wrong

These sounds are different from any in English: chàh should not be pronounced like 'char'. In all cases remember that the Cantonese j is not voiced, just as d is not, while ch and in chín (錢) is aspirated, like t.

[Alveranter]

thanks claw