TSkillet Posted October 10, 2003 at 10:52 PM Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 at 10:52 PM Having lived in Hong Kong for 6 years, I've noticed a laziness amongst Cantonese speakers in HK vs. Cantonese speakers in the Mainland. THe most illustrative point I can think of for this is the move in HK to saying "5" as "mmmm" with one's lips closed instead of the correct "ng" swallowing sound with the tongue behind the front teeth. I've also noticed that people don't really care about using the correct measure words so much in Cantonese - so that almost everything is "goh". Sorry - this isn't even venting. I guess it's just an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted October 10, 2003 at 11:56 PM Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 at 11:56 PM I am Cantonese. Frankly I have been saying "mmmm" for "5" all my life. I guess this is not wrong and have no intention to change to "ng". And I think "goh" is actually the correct measure word for many things. I don't use it for "pencil" or 'knife" or "paper" etc, though. Cantonese are lazy with the sound "ng" when it comes at the beginning of a word. The word for "cow", for example, should be pronounced "ngau" but many people just say "au". And we always confuse "n" with "l". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 11, 2003 at 12:10 AM Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 at 12:10 AM I am Cantonese. Frankly I have been saying "mmmm" for "5" all my life. I guess this is not wrong and have no intention to change to "ng". And I think "goh" is actually the correct measure word for many things. I don't use it for "pencil" or 'knife" or "paper" etc, though. I don't believe it's wrong to say "mmmm" instead of "ng". When I was trying to learn Cantonese from my friends, I was told that's simply how HK people say it. I personally find it easier because I can't pronounce the "ng" sound, which made it difficult for me to learn Vietnamese as well. And we always confuse "n" with "l". THAT's why I couldn't figure out whether ni should be nei or lei! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSkillet Posted October 11, 2003 at 02:42 PM Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 at 02:42 PM skylee - yeah, goh is the basic measure word, but a lot of people even use it for things like glasses of water or t-shirts, instead of bui or geen. I think I just notice it 'cause I learned all those correct measure words at home. I'm pretty sure that 5 should be pronouced with the 'ng' sound - but you're right - almost everyone uses the 'mmm' sound (me too). A lot of words with ng sound are dropped. Actually, since you are here- question - for "yesterday" all my life until I lived in China I heard and use "come yut" and then when I was in China - lots of people used "chum yut" and it confused the hell out of me. Is it just an HK/Mainland difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted October 12, 2003 at 01:29 AM Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 at 01:29 AM HAHAHA. For "yesterday" I use both, though I say "come yut" more. As long as we can communicate, don't bother to ascertain which is right. About measure words, I have heard people use very strange ones, for example, "lup" (粒) for oranges, "chek" (隻) for pillow cases, and "kan" (間) for beds (my mom never failed to remind me that I should use "cheung" (張) for beds). But never heard anyone use "goh" (個) for glasses of water of T-shirts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithsgj Posted October 13, 2003 at 02:54 AM Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 at 02:54 AM Not discriminating between n and l seems odd to me because they are different phonemes! But it happens in Mandarin as well -- in Kunming, and all over the south I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunku Posted October 13, 2003 at 02:59 AM Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 at 02:59 AM Definitly happens all over Yunnan. I often got asked if I had a "lanpengyou" or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 16, 2003 at 01:02 AM Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 at 01:02 AM i have always found it against my ears to hear people enunciate "ney" for "you" instead of "ley" since I myself say "ley" though i think "ney" is the correct pronunciation? because in mandarin it's "ni". also, i say "come yut" or sometimes "cumut" myself, i haven't thought about the difference between chum yut and come yut until a few years ago. i was kinda disturbed by it then, but i think i've gotten over it and come to accept the different kinds of pronunciation of cantonese. like "gwong" and "ghong" for light or for guangzhou. i've always pronounced "ghong" myself. and i do pronounce "ngou" for cow and "ngo" for I. so I think the laziness isn't strictly on every word, and it depends on the person speaking i guess. I say "mmmm" for 5 too. i think for cantonese, getting the correct tones right is more important than enunciating the words. I have a friend in the u.s, he was originally from taishan. if i listen to him speaking cantonese in sentences, it would sound like standard since he got all the tones correct. but when i asked him to enunciate it word by word, i could usually find faults here and there, e.g. when i asked him to say "go in the laboratory to press the emergency button" (yup sut yim sut gum ghun gup jai) he could never say that no matter how slowly he tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquita Posted October 16, 2003 at 06:44 PM Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 at 06:44 PM This is an interesting subject because I've noticed the same thing between myself and a lot of my friends who speak Cantonese but grew up in other parts of the world (like Vietnam, etc.). Apparently, Cantonese has been evolving over the last few years (particularly in HK) such that the "n" sounds are almost all replaced by "l" sounds (ley versus ney for you, for example). Which one is more correct? I personally think that depends on whether you believe languages should evolve and change over time. However, I *do* think that if you want to go to HK and be seen as having perfect Cantonese, it is helfpul to adopt the evolved trends, such as some of those listed in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSkillet Posted October 17, 2003 at 07:10 PM Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2003 at 07:10 PM Honestly, I think - even as an American brought up speaking HK style cantonese (at least from the 1960s - since that's when my parent left) - My preferene is for the cantonese of Guangzhou really. All of my HK friends - even the ones with poorer english - can't through an entire conversation without dropping english in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pazu Posted October 22, 2003 at 08:06 AM Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 at 08:06 AM Good that Hong Kong has her own accent of Cantonese. It's a good trend of development. Okay, I'm from Hong Kong and a native speaker of Hong Kong Cantonese, and I think HK Cantonese is somehow "softer" then the Guangzhou one, which makes so clear about every sound element, and it just made it so hard. I don't know if I'm just biased or what, but at least this is confirmed by some of my Guangdong/Guangxi (Nanning) friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 22, 2003 at 12:17 PM Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 at 12:17 PM I can't find a difference between guangzhou and hk youths' cantonese haha, and their elders or middle aged people also speak the same older version of cantonese. have you visited the original guangzhou city (the original 4 districts, or old guangzhou) yourself before drawing that conclusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylee Posted October 22, 2003 at 02:03 PM Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 at 02:03 PM Agree with Quest. I don't think there is a difference between Guangzhou and HK DJs' Cantonese either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSkillet Posted October 22, 2003 at 08:57 PM Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 at 08:57 PM I think there's a good bit of noticable difference between the cantonese of the youth Hong Kong and Guangzhou. And I used to live in both Hong Kong and Guangzhou - and commute back and forth between them and I could and can readily notice a difference. However, if you gave me an individual, I probably wouldn't be able to place where they are from, but as a group - there's a subtle, but noticable difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 23, 2003 at 12:08 AM Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 at 12:08 AM Tskillet are u a native of hk or gz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSkillet Posted October 23, 2003 at 06:09 PM Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 at 06:09 PM Quest - Los Angeles, CA. hahaha! I lived in Hong Kong when I was 3 and 4, and then in Guangzhou when I was 21 and 22 and Hong Kong from ages 22-28. Plus I visited Hong Kong every summer between 1980 and 1988 for between 2 weeks and 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
confucius Posted October 25, 2003 at 09:30 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 at 09:30 PM So is it "lay" or "nay" for "you"? When Jiang Zemin went to Hong Kong in 1997 he said "Lay gay ho wa" but I have heard Hong Kong singers use "nay" in their songs. I have been saying "nay" as part of my favorite phrase: "nay yommo GAO chou waaaaaah" and am reluctant to say "lay" though my Cantonese language tapes (made in Guangzhou) tell me to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:51 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:51 PM singers usually stress "nay" in songs yes, but most people really say "lay" in normal speech. I found actors that stress "nay" a lot kinda against my ears, but that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:52 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:52 PM "nay yommo GAO chou waaaaaah" "waaaaah" should be "ahhhhh", "waaah is more like taishanese" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:56 PM Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 at 11:56 PM i kinda think the "n" sound for "lay" was lost and regained in the language, because of migration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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