Project for 2011: 水浒传

[Gleaves]

Well done. (No progress to report here.)

[renzhe]

Not too much progress (I'm getting back into it after a longer break), but I will bump this thread with a useful resource:

This wikipedia article lists all 108 heroes, ranked by seniority, and includes a short description of each.

It also has a summary of when and where each character first shows up, in chronological order. This is very useful for keeping track because, well... there's many of them

[anonymoose]

Maybe you should rename this topic to "Project for 2011-2018" then.

[renzhe]

I didn't expect to finish it in one year.

[tooironic]

How's your progress renzhe? I wanna give you my support. This is exactly the kind of crazy mission I'd like to undertake sometime in the future. In fact if I can find the time off work I'd like to start reading too soon, and post my updates here, though I'd definitely enlist the help of a tutor once a week to discuss each part of the book, new words, and so on. Anyway, good luck and jiayou!

[renzhe]

Only a dozen pages since the last update, and all of them this week. But it's picking up again.

I haven't had much time to read because (* insert standard excuses *) My girlfriend will be coming back, and that always helps reading, if only for quick and concise explanations that help me keep the pace.

Thanks for the support in any case, I appreciate it.

[renzhe]

Update -- I've hit the 200 page mark (about 20% through). The reading is going well, only I don't find as much time as I'd like.

I'm attaching the chronological list of the 108 heroes I nicked from wikipedia before it got deleted. It features short descriptions of each, but doesn't always clearly state under which circumstances a character first appears. It's stripped-down html, open it in any web browser.

Since I found out that I need to take notes to keep track of everyone, I'm also attaching a similar (chronological) list I'm making as I go along. It's in English, with names in (traditional) Chinese. Someone might find it useful. I'll keep updating it from time to time. It contains minor spoilers, so it should mostly be used to look up characters who were already introduced.

史進 son in a wealthy family, martial arts fan

朱武 main chief of the 少華山 gang of bandits, close to 史進's household

陳達 second chief among the 少華山 bandits

楊春 third chief among the 少華山 bandits

魯智深 policeman who kills a loan shark in rage, then becomes a monk to escape punishment

李忠 medicine seller and first teacher of 史進

周通 head of 桃花山 bandits, replaced by 李忠, beaten by a naked 魯智深 as he tries to forcefully marry a young girl

林沖 military instructor who is framed by 高俅 after his son takes a liking to 林冲's wife

柴進 rich person who enjoys meeting heroes, he helped 林沖 as he was passing by

杜遷 one of the original leaders of the 梁山 gang

宋萬 another one of the 梁山 leaders

朱貴 innkeeper working with 梁山 bandits, organised a boat for 林沖 to go to 梁山

楊志 a passer-by 林沖 is supposed to rob as a test, later he becomes a military officer and guards a precious gift

索超 fights against 楊志 in a display of martial skill without a victor

朱仝 cavalry commander looking for stolen gift

雷橫 infantry commander looking for stolen gift

劉唐 got mistaken for a thief and captured by 雷橫, saved by 晁盖

吳用 scholar and teacher, schemes to steal the gift with 劉唐 and 晁盖

阮小二 oldest of three fisherman brothers 吳用 visits

阮小五 second oldest fisherman brother

阮小七 youngest fisherman brother

公孫勝 Taoist priest who joins 晁盖 in stealing the gift

白勝 Buddhist priest who pretends to be a wine seller in the ploy

曹正 butcher who attacks 楊志 after he can't pay, later helps him and 魯智深 take over 二龙山

張青 runs an inn with 孫二娘, saves 魯智深 after returning home

孫二娘 wife of 張青, poisoned 魯智深 in the inn

宋江 prisoner escort, later leader

宋清 younger brother of 宋江

武松 meets 宋江 at 柴进's residence, famously kills a tiger

施恩 saves 武松 from prison, hires him to beat a local officer to settle a grudge

孔亮 gets beaten by 武松 in an inn and thrown in to a ditch, student of 宋江

孔明 older brother of 孔亮, comes to his rescue and captures 武松

花榮 excellent archer, worked for 刘高, but later frees 宋江 from prison

燕順 one of three chiefs 宋江 meets on 清风山

王英 one of three chiefs 宋江 meets on 清风山, who kidnaps the wife of 刘高

鄭天壽 one of the three chiefs 宋江 meets on 清风山

黃信 general sent to capture 宋江 and 花榮, later joins them and lets them enter the city

秦明 strong, tempered general who tries to capture 宋江 and 花榮, but they pilage pretending to be him

呂方 medicine salesman turned outlaw, commands red army and fights 郭盛 for 10 days

郭盛 trader turned outlaw, commands white army and fights 呂方 for 10 days

石勇 gambler who carries news of death of 宋江's father to him

戴宗 prison warden who befriends 宋江

李俊 ferryman who saves 宋江 from 張橫

李立 his brother, runs an inn and tries to rob 宋江

童威 saves 宋江 together with 李俊

童猛 younger brother

薛永 the medicine salesman / street performer, 宋江 pays him and offends the 穆 brothers

張橫 the pirate who accepts 宋江 onto his boat and tries to rob him, saved by 李俊

張順 the brother, excellent fighter in water, gets into a fight with 李逵

穆弘 local nobleman who plans to capture 宋江 after he gets into a disagrerement with his brother

穆春 local nobleman bully who attacks 宋江 and fights 薛永, later chases 宋江 to the river

李逵 gambler/brawler friend of 戴宗, short tempered, fights 張順

蕭讓 the scholar who is an expert at forging handwriting

金大堅 the expert at forging seals

侯健 tailor who helps rebels into 黄文炳's residence

歐鵬 one of four heroes who stop 宋江 and ask to join. Can catch projectiles

蔣敬 one of four heroes who stop 宋江 and ask to join. Divine mathematician good with numbers

馬麟 one of four heroes who stop 宋江 and ask to join. Wields a flute and two axes, fights armies

陶宗旺 one of four heroes who stop 宋江 and ask to join. Wields spear and sword

朱富 brother of 朱貴, innkeeper who helps free 李逵

李雲 teacher of 朱富, tricked by him, he then joins the rebels

楊林 friend of 公孫勝, meets 戴宗 by accident and travels with him

鄧飛 one of three outlaws from Yinma river, weilds iron chains with spikes

孟康 one of three outlaws from Yinma river, shipbuilder

裴宣 one of three outlaws from Yinma river, former magistrate, swordsman and scholar

楊雄 executioner with adulterous wife, saved by 石秀, becoming sworn brothers with him

石秀 trader turned firewood salesman who helps victims of bullying (including 楊雄)

時遷 thief who joins 楊雄 and 石秀, and then gets into trouble after stealing a hen

杜興 ugly man who befriends 楊雄 in prison, works for 李應 after his release

扈三娘 a youngh maiden warrior using two sabres and a lasso, beats 王英, and is taken prisoner by 林沖

李應 a wealthy man good at throwing daggers, writes a letter attempting to free 時遷

解珍 elder of the hunter brothers who capture a tiger, but are set up and imprisoned

解寶 younger of the hunter brothers who capture a tiger, but are set up and imprisoned

樂和 prison warden who organises their escape, good with instruments and sing, can foresee events

顧大嫂 cousin of the two hunters, uses spear and staff, can defeat many enemies

孫新 her husband the innkeeper, younger brother of 孫立

鄒淵 righteous fighter, robs the rich to help the poor

鄒潤 weird looking man with a "horn", nephew of 鄒淵

孫立 garrison chief, tall strong man, weilds a pair of steel clubs, pale complexion

One of these days, I'm planning to post a full sample page with some comments on the language, and in which ways it is difficult, to build on the discussion earlier in this thread, but it might have to wait for the weekend.

108.htm

[renzhe]

OK, as promised, here is a page from the novel as a basis for discussion (assuming someone is still interested). It takes place in 柴进's residence just after 宋江 meets 武松 . These two are arguably the most important characters in the novel. This page does not contain any major spoilers, but I'm putting it inside spoiler tags anyway.

　宋江大喜，携住武松的手，一同到后堂席上，便唤宋清与武松相见。柴进便邀

武松坐地。宋江连忙让他一同在上面坐。武松那里肯坐，谦了半晌，武松坐了第三

位。柴进教再整杯盘来，劝三人痛饮。宋江在灯下看那武松时，果然是一条好汉。

但见：

　　身躯凛凛，相貌堂堂。一双眼光射寒星，两弯眉浑如刷漆。胸脯横阔，有万夫

难敌之威风；语话轩昂，吐千丈凌云之志气。心雄胆大，似撼天狮子下云端；骨健

筋强，如摇地貔貅临座上。如同天上降魔主，真是人间太岁神。

　　当下宋江在灯下看了武松这表人物，心中甚喜，便问武松道：“二郎因何在此？”

武松答道：“小弟在清河县，因酒后醉了，与本处机密相争，一时间怒起，只一拳，

打得那厮昏沉。小弟只道他死了，因此一径地逃来，投奔大官人处，躲灾避难，今

已一年有余。后来打听得那厮却不曾死，救得活了。今欲正要回乡去寻哥哥，不想

染患疟疾，不能够动身回去。却才正发寒冷，在那廊下向火，被兄长跐了锨柄，吃

了那一惊，惊出一身冷汗，觉得这病好了。”宋江听了大喜。当夜饮至三更。酒罢，

宋江就留武松在西轩下做一处安歇。次日起来，柴进安排席面，杀羊宰猪，管待宋

江，不在话下。过了数日，宋江将出些银两来与武松做衣裳。柴进知道，那里肯要

他坏钱?自取出一箱缎匹绸绢，门下自有针工，便教做三人的称体衣裳。

　　说话的，柴进因何不喜武松?原来武松初来投奔柴进时，也一般接纳管待；次

后在庄上，但吃醉了酒，性气刚，庄客有些顾管不到处，他便要下拳打他们，因此

满庄里庄客，没一个道他好。众人只是嫌他，都去柴进面前，告诉他许多不是处。

柴进虽然不赶他，只是相待得他慢了。却得宋江每日带挈他一处，饮酒相陪，武松

的前病都不发了。

　　相伴宋江住了十数日，武松思乡，要回清河县看望哥哥。柴进、宋江两个都留

他再住几时，武松道：“小弟的哥哥多时不通信息，因此要去望他。”宋江道：“实

是二郎要去，不敢苦留。如若得闲时，再来相会几时。”武松相谢了宋江。柴进取

出些金银，送与武松，武松谢道：“实是多多相扰了大官人。”武松缚了包裹，拴

了哨棒，要行。柴进又治酒食送路。武松穿了一领新纳红绸祆，戴着个白范阳毡笠

儿，背上包裹，提了杆棒，相辞了便行。宋江道：“贤弟少等一等。”回到自己房

内，取了些银两，赶出到庄门前来，说道：“我送兄弟一程。”宋江和兄弟宋清两

个送武松，待他辞了柴大官人，宋江也道：“大官人，暂别了便来。”

When it comes to prose, I had to look up the following. Some are very archaic words describing occupations and locations (机密,西轩). Native speakers won't know some of these. Others are simply words that I didn't know but are common enough and worth remembering (跐, 疟疾):

痛饮

机密

疟疾

跐

西轩

哨棒

The following are either obvious from the characters and context, or were already used in previous pages. I looked them up, but had guessed all of them already. These are the sort of words I often guess and skip if they are not crucial for understanding:

上席

昏沉

锨柄

谦 used as a verb

席面

针工

刚 meaning aggressive

苦留

毡笠儿

As usual, the poetic part (typeset italic) was the trickiest. 身躯凛凛, 相貌堂堂, 骨健筋强, 撼天狮子, and 摇地貔貅 are pretty clear, but I had to look up:

寒星

刷漆

轩昂

凌云

云端

貔貅 (!)

魔主

太岁

That's quite hardcore, but pretty typical for the poetry bits. I don't really read them, I fight my way through them. (BTW, the nciku image for 貔貅 is absolutely hilarious.)

Overall, this is quite representative of the difficulty of the novel. The poetic description (I can't find a better word) is pretty average. There are simpler and more difficult ones. The prose is somewhat easier than average, but pretty representative. Some parts are considerably harder, with less conversation and more densely packed with low-frequency words, and require slower and more careful reading, but overall, this page is a good way to gauge the difficulty.

At the moment, the prose is challenging, but rewarding, and poetry is simply hard work.

[imron]

That page is actually a lot easier than I expected. I still have no immediate plans to read this, but it's nice to think that it's more accessible than I originally thought.

[Areckx]

http://www.purepen.com/shz/index.htm THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

[roddy]

You know what really winds me up? Given names that look like they might be part of a sentence. I keep on trying to figure out what 柴 entered. You get used to it, of course, but still . . .

It is pretty understandable though - slow going, rather than hard going.

[rob07]

This wikipedia article lists all 108 heroes, ranked by seniority, and includes a short description of each.

Great list.

Watch out for no.55, the ancestor of 郭靖 from 射雕英雄传.

I read somewhere else that 秦明 had to rank below 花荣 because he married her younger sister?

武松，张清，燕青 and 朱武 should all be higher. But poor old 晁盖 is not even on the list at all.

[rob07]

Noticed the The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages on that other thread. I think C1 is good enough for 水浒传, C2 is not necessary (obviously some bits will be a struggle). Renzhe, do you agree?

[renzhe]

No

EDIT: I think that it would be a struggle, even with C2. It's certainly a struggle for me.

[doezeedoats]

I'm new to this thread - kudos to renzhe for starting it - but I have been reading 水滸傳 in Chinese since early 2011...only on Chapter 12 - 梁山泊林衝落草　汴京城楊志賣刀. Anybody else think it odd that 王倫 uses  制使 practically every sentence? And to mean what, exactly. Seems unique to SHZ.

[doezeedoats]

So 王倫 is referring to 楊志, calling him 制使， which I gather is an old military rank-title. Suddenly it makes sense.

Any online annotated 水滸傳 resources? I've just been looking things up as I go along.

[yialanliu]

I'll be either joining you or reading Romance of the three kingdoms haha. I will let you know when I start reading which should be soon hehe.

[renzhe]

Welcome, don't leave me to rot alone

[roddy]

Bloody hell, this ain't easy. Took me an hour to plough through the first chapter. That was with taking it carefully, looking lots of stuff up and at least attempting the poetic descriptions. Already have a flashcard file of about 40 items.It was kind of fun though. There's no way I'm going to promise the whole thing, but I may yet make further progress. Will have a proper read through this topic now to make sure I don't waste any of Renzhe's 前车之鉴.

Edit: Ha, should have read that before ordering the book - I have the 长春出版社 edition which Gato reports is missing poems and has been mildly rewritten. Perhaps I will get somewhere with it after all.

That said, it isn't that hard. There's a lot of stuff I've been looking up that should stand me in good stead (the use of 权, off the top of my head) and it's been a couple of months since I did any non-work Chinese reading, so I'm perhaps still spinning up to speed. I might try and do the next chapter at a faster pace and worry less about the difficult bits.

[rob07]

Renzhe, I think you said on another thread that you are continuing to progress through this, how is it going?

I'm thinking seriously about 三国演义 ...