native level

[anonymoose]

I think that kid must be really talented. I mean, not just from his chinese, but the way he acts on stage, he's a natural showman.

[gato]

In the CCTV CNY segment, I think the little kid's accent is better than Dashan's.

I think Dashan's pronunciation is better. Listen to when Eddie says "你学过汉语吗？", for example. There are some tone problems with his "你学过".

[mfgillia]

Actually the missionaries have 3 months of "formal" language learning, typically in the United States. It used to be only 2 months. Before, not sure about now, most of the Mandarin teachers in the United States were Americans who were returned missionaries. No special language training or degrees for most of them.

Their schedule is full. They get up at 6:30 or so for study religious and language. Then from about 9:30 AM to 9:30 PM they are out talking to people, teaching in Mandarin, meeting new people etc. This is 6+ days a week.

So they are constantly exposed to the language and have to learn it. They, many times, even speak Chinese to each other. Many of them also have native companions (missionaries work in twos) which helps a lot especially if the local doesn't speak much English.

An example of this exposure is that immediately upon getting to Taiwan they are assigned to an area for a short period of time then they are transferred to another area. Upon arriving in a new area, the first Sunday they attend church they have to stand up and introduce themselves and give a short talk in Mandarin. Sometimes there are only 25 people listening and sometimes hundreds so this type of exposure is something many students don't get.

They use Pinyin materials in the beginning - can't start studying characters until they can teach with some understanding 5 lessons.

I don't see natural ability here at all. There are thousands of these who do this in many languages around the world. They are just regular people who volunteer to share their beliefs and from there are assigned to a place to go - could be English speaking or foreign speaking.

They are on their mission a total of 2 years for men and 1 1/2 years for women. So a total of 21 months and 15 months on island. And yes you are right about Huntsman.

Mark

Thanks for posting - very interesting stuff. Very impressed with the few I ran into. We did interview one such person for a position in Korea largely because he claimed to be fluent in Korean through his missionary experience. However, during the interview he couldn't display a basic level of communication ability. Sometimes he would be quite advanced, more often couldn't answer the simplest questions and occasionally to our surprise (and his) he would mix in quite a bit of Chinese. As it turns out, he had also done some missionary work in China.

To be fair to him though, I can't imagine a more stressful environment than doing multiple rounds of interviews in a language one hadn't spoken regularly in a few years.

[wedge]

Thanks for posting - very interesting stuff

+1. A buddy of mine learned his very natural-sounding Chinese during his 2-year mission in Taiwan as well.

On the other hand, I just finished 8 months of full-time (4 hours/day) 1-on-1 lessons. During this time, I spent most of my days in class or studying, with comparatively little time to socialize and meet new locals like my Mormon friend. I think I've made alot of progress, but I've noticed that my everyday conversational 口语 has lagged behind relative to my buddy.

So while he and I are probably at comparable levels talking about more "advanced" topics (politics, economics, business), he sounds much more natural in everyday situations (making smalltalk, telling jokes, telling stories).

I see this as a weakness of the "intensive program" route to learning Chinese, at least compared to the more natural immersion of a missionary... Or it could just be my problem.

[aristotle1990]

Found more about Eddie here.

Edmund "Eddie" Kapelczak, an 11 year old student from Barnard Mandarin Chinese Magnet Elementary School, was invited to perform on ChunWan on Feb. 2, 2011. The program was broadcast on CCTV in China and seen by approximately 1.3 billion people. With the support from the Confucius Institute at SDSU and Hanban, Eddie became the youngest student among all 4 CI students performing on ChunWan. Eddie has studied Chinese for nearly two years at the Mandarin Magnet program at Barnard Elementary School. Barnard Elementary is one of seven Confucius Classroom schools in San Diego. From a Polish-American family, Eddie's passion for the Chinese language and culture resonates through his incredible Chinese speaking abilities. Eddie was also invited to perform at the 5th Annual Confucius Institute Conference in Beijing. Eddie's story has brought inspiration to many American students and educators involved in San Diego Mandarin programs.

I think Dashan's pronunciation is better. Listen to when Eddie says "你学过汉语吗？", for example. There are some tone problems with his "你学过".

Better than Dashan's tones after two years. Also, remember, he's eleven. I remember how dumb I was when I was eleven...

[gato]

I don't want to take anything away from Eddie, but Dashan still sounds better to me. Remember also that it's easier to learn languages at a younger age, especially the pronunciation part.

[aristotle1990]

哎哟, no, I meant that his pronunciation is better than Dashan's was after he had studied two years of Chinese. Dashan's pronunciation now is no doubt better, though I think if Eddie keeps studying his pronunciation will be better than Dashan's some day.

[David Wong]

Just my two cents...but when it comes to speaking English/Chinese at a native level, one shouldn't focus too much efforts on accent and the like.

Agreed.

By the way, there is no single universal "native Chinese accent". Even native Mandarin speakers from Beijing sound quite different from the newscasters on CCTV. I'm guessing the "newscaster" accent is what some folks here aspire to, but if one should fall short of that, you'd probably be in the same boat as 90% of native speakers. Don't ask me to back up that number.

An anecdote... when my father-in-law found out that our sitter is from Beijing, he said, "你叫她把口里的橄榄吐出来吧": a reference to how Southerners can sometimes find the Beijing speech odd-sounding, like she's speaking with an olive in the mouth.

[jbradfor]

Don't ask me to back up that number.

You can find it in roddy's new book.

[Glenn]

Even if there's no single universal Chinese accent (and really, what language does have this?), there are still Chinese accents and non-Chinese accents, and native speakers, I would wager, can tell the difference. I'll shoot for a 陝西 accent before I shoot for an American one, for instance. Now, how caught up I get in perfecting any one is a different story. I don't want to drive myself crazy, and there's the question of just what I'd gain from it, which has yet to be asked, even.

[anonymoose]

Given the number of ABCs, I'm sure there are many native speakers with American accents. At least I have come across a few in Shanghai.

[wedge]

Given the number of ABCs, I'm sure there are many native speakers with American accents. At least I have come across a few in Shanghai.

Aren't most ABCs native speakers of English? (Which is why they have American accents when they speak Chinese)

[anonymoose]

And who says you can't be a native speaker of more than one language?

[wedge]

I dunno... if an ABC has an American accent, to me that implies that Chinese was not enough a part of his/her initial language acquisition for it to be considered a native language... unless perhaps the ABC's parents were also ABCs that spoke American-accented Chinese.

[gato]

It could also be that they only knew "baby Chinese". ;)

[renzhe]

It's very common with people who grow up in countries where the local language is different from the language of their parents. Many of them have accents, even if they only speak the non-local language at home. Even if the language their parents speak is perfect, it is still only a fraction of their complete exposure, most of which is in the local language, and it shapes their accent. You also notice an accent drift with people who move to a new country as adults and do not get enough exposure in their native language.

I've witnessed this often with Croatian diaspora in Germany, Canada and England. I don't see why it would be different with Chinese, especially ABCs who are often second or third generation.

[David Wong]

Is there no upside to having a foreign accent?

TV shows from the 70's and 80's taught me that certain European accents were considered alluring or "sexy". Does a similar principle apply to speaking Chinese with a foreign accent?

[Glenn]

I just have this thing about being authentic. Maybe it's a pitfall of mine, keeping me from straying too far off the path and trying different things, but I feel like if you're going to learn Chinese you should strive to use it like the Chinese. Like I said before, there's a limit to how far I'm willing to go with that, though. But picking a region and striving for that accent/dialect is a part of that goal, but doesn't change it. That's just my personal feeling about it, and about language-learning in general. There may be advantages to sounding foreign, but I'd rather be able to not seem foreign at all if I can help it (but no, I wouldn't get plastic surgery).

[aristotle1990]

Just found this video. His Chinese is shockingly good for someone that young. At times it's hard to tell he's not a Chinese kid. (Of course, at other times there are tone problems, and he does enunciate each character a bit too much.)

Remember also that it's easier to learn languages at a younger age, especially the pronunciation part.

I don't think it's easier to learn languages at a younger age; you might have an advantage in the pronunciation aspect, but you're not going to have the work ethic, intelligence, or determination of an adult.

[anonymoose]

I don't think it's easier to learn languages at a younger age; you might have an advantage in the pronunciation aspect, but you're not going to have the work ethic, intelligence, or determination of an adult.

So are you saying you put as much effort into becoming conversational in your native language as you did for Chinese?