aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 12:42 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 12:42 AM So a Chinese person writes this to me today: 他说他昨天晚上三点才回的家. Just like that, one sentence. I have encountered this pattern before, and a Google search will reveal numerous examples, but I don't get it -- strictly speaking, this whole phrase (他昨天晚上三点才回的家) is a noun. I don't understand how it can be a grammatically complete sentence -- is this just colloquial? I pressed her, but she couldn't explain to me why she said it like that, only that 三点才回了家 and 三点才回家了 sound awkward. (Why this is the case I don't quite get either, by the way.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:27 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:27 AM 的 should be 得. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:32 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:32 AM It beats me, too. I think it should be said 他說他昨天晚上三點才回到家。Or, 他說他昨天晚上三點才回家的。Perhaps it's usage in Mainland China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gato Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:37 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:37 AM 回家的 and 回的家 are used interchangeably in spoken Northern dialects (like 东北话), I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:41 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:41 AM It sounds quite natural to me. I would also say things like 我8点才吃的晚饭. Maybe it is a mainland usage and a bit dialectal as well, but I can not explain the grammatical pattern of the 的. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:41 AM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:41 AM Hofmann -- can you explain a bit more? 三点才回得家 doesn't make much sense to me. semantic nuance -- it may be the case that people are confusing 到 and 的 when they write down what they say. You hear something that sounds like 回的家 a lot in Beijing (I first encountered this usage in speech), but it could be 回到家. gato -- I can accept 回家的 and randomly throwing 的 onto the end of things, I do it myself actually (grammatically I've always thought of it as applying everything that comes after the subject to the subject -- 我昨天晚上三点才回家的), but I don't get 回的家. xiaocai -- yeah, I've heard this structure with other things too, which makes me doubt the 回到家 explanation. So okay, it's a northern thing, but I still don't get the grammar -- if anyone has any theories I'd love to hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gougou Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:59 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 01:59 AM gato -- I can accept 回家的 and randomly throwing 的 onto the end of things, I do it myself actually (grammatically I've always thought of it as applying everything that comes after the subject to the subject -- 我昨天晚上三点才回家的)I thought this was a truncated 是。。。的 construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:12 AM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:12 AM How could it be a 是。。。的 construction? Why would you say 是我昨天晚上三点才回家的？ I just chalk it up to the magic of the ancient, inscrutable 的 particle on the vast wilds of the Mongolian steppe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semantic nuance Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:30 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:30 AM Perhaps gougou meant --我是昨天晚上三點回(到)家的, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:35 AM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 02:35 AM Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I guess I've been using 的 like this for so long I've stopped thinking about it as a 是。。。的 construction (although it's basically the same as "applying everything that comes after the subject to the subject"). Still don't get 回的家 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Posted April 25, 2011 at 03:08 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 03:08 AM I am sure it is “'是......的'construction”. For example, （是）谁给你起的名字，这么好听！ 是你引诱的我！＝是你引诱我的！ （是）姐姐让我进的屋。＝是姐姐让我进屋的。 他昨天晚上三点才回的家＝他是昨天晚上三点才回的家＝他昨天晚上三点才回家的＝他是昨天晚上三点才回家的。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 04:23 AM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 04:23 AM But Avatar, 他是昨天晚上三点才回的家 doesn't quite seem to work out grammatically. In a regular 是。。。的 construction we would expect to see a subject, in this case 他, doing something, in this case 昨天晚上三点才回家, connected with a 是 and a 的 like so: 他是昨天晚上三点才回家的. Putting the 的 between the 回 and the 家 means that 他 is a 家, no? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted April 25, 2011 at 05:05 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 05:05 AM In a regular 是。。。的 construction we would expect to see a subject, in this case 他, doing something, in this case 昨天晚上三点才回家, connected with a 是 and a 的 like so: 他是昨天晚上三点才回家的. Putting the 的 between the 回 and the 家 means that 他 is a 家, no? :blink: This is an alternative positioning of 的 in the 是。。。的 structure. It's covered in Yip & Rimmington, I believe, and I've seen it in another book I forget the name of. I was quite bemused when I first came across it too, because I'd never heard it. But I've heard mainland friends say it (like a friend from Hubei). Basically, the object can be moved to right after the 的. The meaning is still the same. 他是昨天晚上三点才回的家. It seems like a sort of inverted topic, where the object becomes the anti-topic and gets put at the end: 家，他是昨天晚上三点才回的。 他是昨天晚上三点才回的，家。 xiaocai and Avatar are right: It sounds quite natural to me. I would also say things like 我8点才吃的晚饭. Maybe it is a mainland usage and a bit dialectal as well, but I can not explain the grammatical pattern of the 的. It does seem more mainlandish; I don't think I've heard it on Taiwanese TV shows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:28 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:28 AM But Avatar, 他是昨天晚上三点才回的家 doesn't quite seem to work out grammatically. In a regular 是。。。的 construction we would expect to see a subject, in this case 他, doing something, in this case 昨天晚上三点才回家, connected with a 是 and a 的 like so: 他是昨天晚上三点才回家的. Putting the 的 between the 回 and the 家 means that 他 is a 家, no? I think we just have to accept that it is a pattern that is under the influence of certain dialects of the speakers, which might not be well explained with standard Mandarin grammars. Another example is that someone who speaks Cantonese as their first language may say 我走先 in Mandarin instead of the "standard" form 我先走了. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gato Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:30 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:30 AM under the influence of certain dialects of the speakers The question is which dialects. My guess is 东北话. I can imagine 赵本山 saying this in his skits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edelweis Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:38 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 06:38 AM "Chinese grammar without tears" explicitly states: If the object after the verb is a noun, "de" can be placed either before or after the noun我是去年来的北京 我是去年来北京的 If the object after the verb in the sentence is a pronoun, "de" is placed after the pronoun 我是上星期看见他的 他(是)昨天晚上三点才回的家 seems to comply with this. (PS: "Chinese grammar without tears" is not the best grammar book out there since the explanations are sometimes lacking from a foreigner's POV, but it is published by 北京大学出版社 so I imagine this is standard Mandarin.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaocai Posted April 25, 2011 at 07:08 AM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 07:08 AM The question is which dialects. My guess is 东北话. I can imagine 赵本山 saying this in his skits. Maybe, maybe not. I did a search with google but failed to find any obvious geographical pattern relating to this usage. Hmm, so it seems like that it has been mentioned in at least one grammar book after all. It may have been considered regional before but now is widely used across the whole mainland and has been accepted as standard already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle1990 Posted April 25, 2011 at 12:26 PM Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 12:26 PM Basically, the object can be moved to right after the 的. The meaning is still the same. 他是昨天晚上三点才回的家. It seems like a sort of inverted topic, where the object becomes the anti-topic and gets put at the end: Money quote. Thanks, everyone (especially creamyhorror and edelweis)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creamyhorror Posted April 25, 2011 at 04:29 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 04:29 PM No problem, glad you brought this topic up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofmann Posted April 25, 2011 at 11:39 PM Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 at 11:39 PM I might be mistaken, but I interpreted the sentence as meaning "He said he could only return home last night at three o'clock." Does not 回得家 clearly mean "can return home?" Or is my Cantonese influencing me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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