Quest Posted December 15, 2004 at 06:41 AM Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 at 06:41 AM Besides, the sentence doesn't even make flowing sense in English. neither does it in Chinese. I would say 英语说得好的中国人很多, but never 说英语好的中国人很多. Same thing with 讲 -- 英语讲得好的人很多， not 讲英语好的人很多。 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted December 15, 2004 at 09:12 AM Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 at 09:12 AM 1. I imagine from Pravit's point of view/level of Chinese, the debate must be quite confusing. I'd therefore like to confirm to him that his original sentence is the sentence to learn as non-controversial & the best: 很多中國人說英語說得很好 2. He also asked for an alternative construction with 很多 at the end, then it is : 英语说得很好的中国人很多 (He may find the 2 kinds of "de" appearing together within the same sentence a bit confusing) 3. I have no opinion regarding the validity of 很多中国人说英语很好 說英語很好的中國人很多 except to say to Pravit that he needn't concern himself with these sentences at this very stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted December 15, 2004 at 07:00 PM Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 at 07:00 PM HashiriKata, thanks again! 英语说得很好的中国人很多(He may find the 2 kinds of "de" appearing together within the same sentence a bit confusing) I think I've got a hold of it. That Beijing University course explained all the different "de"'s(well, at least three of them). If you have "shuo hen hao" it's "say that it's good", "shuo de hen hao"(with "de" being the one that you use with verbs, forget what it's called), "say/speak well." So "Ying yu(topic- English) shuo de hen hao de(good English-speaking type of thing or person) zhong guo ren(The good Engish-speaking type of Chinese) hen duo(there's a lot of them)." Right? As far as I can tell, ala is saying you don't need 得 to describe the action of this verb, and the others are saying you need it, or else the sentence becomes ambiguous because of another construction "shuo (something)" - "say that (something)." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted December 17, 2004 at 02:07 AM Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 02:07 AM Another question - translating "In the past there were relatively few foreign company representatives in China, but they are becoming more and more numerous." I did it as "过去中国里有外国公司的代表比较少，但是现在越来越多了。" But the answer given is "过去外国公司驻中国的代表很少，但是现在越来越多了。" I'm suspecting my variant is wrong because there is no topic in the first clause, so the second clause has no meaning. Would "过去驻中国的外国公司的代表很少" be possible? About "外国公司驻中国的代表" I don't quite understand their way of putting it - "(foreign company live in China) type of representative"? Who here is living in China? The representative - zhu zhongguo de daibiao? How then does "representative" inherit any of the meaning of "foreign company"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopolo79 Posted December 17, 2004 at 02:29 AM Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 02:29 AM 驻 is used for any kind of diplomatic, military, commercial, etc. person or group of people stationed in a particular location. Since it's a very literary term that already describes someone residing in a particular place, it's not proceeded with the prepositon 在 and has a contruction that seems different from normal useage. Look at it like this: 代表 Whose 代表? 外国公司的代表. Oh, if they're 外国公司的代表, then where are they located? 外国公司駐中國的代表. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted December 17, 2004 at 07:14 AM Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 07:14 AM Thanks for your answer, marco! It clears it up a bit. Oh, if they're 外国公司的代表, then where are they located?外国公司駐中國的代表. See, this is the part that confuses me, because it makes me think that the company is living in China. Unless that's correct usage. Can I say "驻中国外国公司的代表"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest Posted December 17, 2004 at 08:44 AM Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 08:44 AM You can say 驻中国的外国公司代表. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopolo79 Posted December 17, 2004 at 09:31 AM Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 09:31 AM The important thing to remember about 駐 is that it always is describing an agent or proxy, whether it is a person, a group of people, or a thing, that has been posted, dispatched to a particular location. There is no ambiguity in the sentence because the action of being placed in a certain location is inherently understood to be the agent acting on behalf of the greater entity rather than the entity itself. I know it sounds confusing, but it makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HashiriKata Posted December 17, 2004 at 05:48 PM Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 05:48 PM Let's try another way: 外国公司驻中国的代表 (代表 as main item, 外国公司驻中国 as modfying item, linked to the main by 的) 外国公司驻中国= foreign companies (stationed) in China 代表= representatives Putting the two together, we've got: (a) Representatives of foreign companies in China = (B) Foreign company representatives in China Do you think it gets a bit clearer? I hope . (It's arguable that (a) is not the same as (B) but I'm pretty sure that they're meant to be the same in this case.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted December 17, 2004 at 06:04 PM Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 at 06:04 PM I think I'm understanding it, guys, thanks! Most of my confusion was probably from thinking that the verb "驻" could only apply to people. Out of curiosity, is it still OK to say "中国里有外国公司的代表"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Posted December 20, 2004 at 01:16 AM Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 at 01:16 AM Pravit, I think you're confusing 駐 with the verb 住 zhù, to live. Although the pronunciation is the same, they're two different words. Compare: 我住在馬德里 = I live in Madrid 中國駐馬德里大使館 = The Chinese Embassy in Madrid In the first case, it is 住, the verb "to live", that you use with people. In the second case, it is 駐, the formal word that marcopolo has explained so clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted December 20, 2004 at 01:51 AM Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 at 01:51 AM I see!! I don't remember my book making a distinction, but perhaps I was reading too lazy. Thanks, Jose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpatObserver Posted January 3, 2005 at 12:26 PM Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 at 12:26 PM Pravit, How did you manage to post in pinyin? Any tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pravit Posted January 3, 2005 at 05:00 PM Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 at 05:00 PM I use the very wonderful DimSum program which you can download for free at: http://www.mandarintools.com/ Not only does it have pop-up definitions for characters and a radical look-up dictionary, but you can convert characters to pinyin or just type straight in pinyin. Anyhow, I really like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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