Learning Mandarin in both Beijing & Kunming?

[Sydney Matt]

Hi all,

I've been studying Mandarin in Sydney, Australia for about two years now. When I say that, it's been at one 2.5 hour class per week, so I'm guessing about the equivalent of one year at univeristy level (?)

I am now keen to give my Mandarin a real boost by studying in China. After some initial reading on these forums and beyond, here's my plan in a nutshell so far:

* Come to Beijing in early-mid September for 3 months, then move to Kunming in November, and stay there until around January/February before returning home.

* Study at private language schools in both places, probably 1-on-1, as I get the impression this will allow me to make the fastest progress.

My main question is whether the move from Beijing to Kunming half-way through seems reasonable? Will it have any impact on the continuity of my studies?

Although it might seem a bit flippant, the main reason for this is that I simply don't think I could survive a Beijing winter. I'm just so used to being in a city where we put on our jumpers and jackets once the temperature falls below about 20 degrees celsius (70 Fahrenheit)!

Thank you!

[PanShiBo]

There can be several several different good strategies to make best progress, all depends on your priorities. Is your budget a factor? Or time? Do you like small or big places? Do you want to come just to practice what you have learned or learn new stuff?

In your situation I would guess (I may be mistaken)you will want to practice what you already know, and as such, I see no need to hire a tutor or even go to school. Consider coming to Beijing and travel down to Kunming by bus/train. This will give you full-immersion opportunity to practice language, plus having fun.

[amandagmu]

What are your goals? I'm all for going to more remote places than Beijing if one is just looking for conversational practice...

I just have a word or two of caution, based on what I have experienced/what friends have said, but perhaps not really big issues for you. First, if you're looking to do something more than just conversation, you aren't really going to be in China long enough to make progress if you jump from one place to the other. I have personally been frustrated when I jump from one school or place to another in a different city or country because my new teachers/school usually have different accents and vocabulary or ideas about how to teach me, and thus we end up going over the same things I did elsewhere (usually wasting at least the first week or two of time). I have never been to Kunming, but I do know that this may perhaps be an issue as your ear adapts to the accent there versus what you were hearing in Beijing. This happened to me when I moved to Taipei, as I got placed a class below mine just for conversation because I missed some of what they said during the interview (I'd studied in Dongbei/Beijing + Dalian previously), and then again I had this 口语 problem when I moved to Beijing this time around (as I'd been in Taipei, where the the vocabulary and general use of the language seemed more formal than that in Beijing). Of course, 1-on-1 in Beijing made the transition back much less painful and embarrassing, plus I wasn't wasting anyone else's time in the classroom.

The other big word of caution is choice. I'm not saying that Kunming doesn't have any (I'm sure they do!) but you will have a lot of variety and options and Beijing, as well as people and schools who can adapt to whatever schedule you want. The competition is so fierce that nearly every school will let you have a free trial class. (Warning! Do NOT let them pressure you into signing up during or right after the free trial. WALK AWAY and think about it overnight, try some more schools if possible, then make the decision.) Remember to ask about scheduling in advance and who would be your teacher before signing/paying for anything. I've had a couple places try to pawn off inexperienced teachers/those in training after I've paid and I had to complain to get it switched, as usually the "good" teachers were fully booked or only had odd times available. But, in general, you should be able to negotiate your hours and days each week in these environments. For example, if you want to study 2 hours per day 3 times per week in the mornings, and you don't want to start before 10, they can often do that. That kind of schedule would give you plenty of time for other activities outside of class. If you want some light homework but not too much, you can request that as well. When you visit a school don't forget to ask if they have extracurricular activities (my favorite!) like going to the market to buy vegetables, learning calligraphy or martial arts in Chinese, etc. All of these little things will really help keep you in a Chinese learning environment.

Of course, if your goals are purely conversational practice out of the classroom then I wonder why you want to come to Beijing at all. I don't know how other people feel, but I think the learning environment in Beijing *outside of the classroom* is not the best when one is at a beginner's or lower intermediate level and that's because the people you'll be able to speak with are those whose English is likely better than your Chinese. Comparatively speaking, when I went to Dalian almost no one spoke English to me, including my Korean classmates whose Chinese was better than their English. This made an ENORMOUS difference when I went out to do anything at all. I had to communicate without English in almost every case. These days many Beijing restaurants, shops, offices have younger people who can speak English. If you order in bad Chinese about 50% of the time they will switch into using a few English words. (There is a general aura of chaotic busy-ness in Beijing these days and few people are willing to suffer the pain of your slowly-spoken Chinese.) This doesn't seem to affect me at my current level (somewhere in the advanced range), but I have noticed this happen with people learning Chinese at lower levels. My guess is that Kunming does not yet have this problem, but I'd love to hear what other people have to say! Plus I've heard Yunnan is lovely and I personally adore Yunnan food. It's much fresher/less oily than Dongbei food.... :-P

[PanShiBo]

my new teachers/school usually have different accents and vocabulary

That actually is the point. Never stick with same place/teacher/tutor for this exact reason. Or you will end up speaking like your teacher (etc.) only. China in general doesn't speak pure Mandarin and common vocab is narrow. I was at the bank today (town in Central China) and teller had trouble conversing with the customer. Both were Chinese. Learning modern/practical Chinese to converse with Chinese as a goal is not the same as learning standard Mandarin. Both goals are just goals and it is important to know which is which.

[abcdefg]

I'll limit my response to your second issue.

Although it might seem a bit flippant, the main reason for this (moving from Beijing to Kunming) is that I simply don't think I could survive a Beijing winter. I'm just so used to being in a city where we put on our jumpers and jackets once the temperature falls below about 20 degrees celsius (70 Fahrenheit)!

Please bear in mind that Kunming is not all balmy and tropical in the winter, even though it's certainly nowhere near as cold as Beijing. Most houses (and classrooms) here don't have heating. So, indoors and out, you will be bundled up and shivering at least during much of December and January, plus maybe a little in November and February as well. There is also a big difference here between the daytime highs and nighttime lows 昼夜温差。

All this is not to say that Kunming winters are brutal; don't misunderstand. But winter here is not as nice as the Chamber of Commerce would have you believe.

[PanShiBo]

But winter here is not as nice as the Chamber of Commerce would have you believe.

I agree. Despite I know what it is like minus twenty (Celsius) inside tent in open tundra, the most miserable feeling from cold I ever experienced was in Nanning (Southern China) in winter: it is cold outside and even colder inside of unheated hotel room. It took some time to figure out how to deal with it.

[Ilanav]

About Kunming weather - when i was there in the winter of 2008, it was really cold (at least by my standards) for about 2 monthes. I think it was around 2-8 C. Obviosly its better than Beijing, but still not very warm. on the other hand, the weather in April and May was really great, if you are planning to stay for longer.

The only place that I visited and was HOT in that time was Xixuangbana.

[Keown]

If I were you I'd choose something in between, e.g. Shanghai and stay there one semester...

[imron]

Nah, just invest in some thick long-johns, a down jacket and a good pair of gloves (all readily available in China) and stick it out in Beijing. It's not that bad and you'll get used to it (I say this as a fellow Aussie). If you're not prepared to live a little outside your comfort zone you'll find the weather is the least of your worries in China

[WestTexas]

I'm originally from Texas and I lived in Jilin province my first year in China. Yeah it's horribly cold, but you get used to it. When I went to Beijing from Jilin at the end of December I was walking around Beijing in a T-shirt and jeans because I was so hardened to the cold from living in Jilin. The point being, just get tough and you will be fine in Beijing. Beijing has good heating and it's not like you'll be outside 24/7. For me, if I'm wearing a jacket, -5 degrees celcius and sunny is lovely weather. It's cold enough to where there's no water to step in, and the cold feels brisk and invigorating on your face. There's nothing quite like going into a girl's apartment all bundled up from the cold, having her cook you stew for dinner, and then warming up by getting to know her better as the outside temperature drops below -30.

[Sydney Matt]

Thank you so much for all the replies so far - you've certainly given me some food for thought!

@ PanShiBo: My goal is definitely to learn new things (as well as practicing what I already know). My initial goal is to reach conversational proficiency, and then much longer term to become "functionally fluent", including in reading & writing. Of course, realise I'm not going to achieve either of these in just 6 months, this is only the start. Briefly on your other points - yes, I do prefer big cities; time is fairly flexible because I'm dedicating 6 months purely to studying Chinese, and budget is one factor because I'm using my savings (still doing the sums

Of course, if your goals are purely conversational practice out of the classroom then I wonder why you want to come to Beijing at all. I don't know how other people feel, but I think the learning environment in Beijing *outside of the classroom* is not the best when one is at a beginner's or lower intermediate level and that's because the people you'll be able to speak with are those whose English is likely better than your Chinese

@ amandagmu: Thanks for this, definitely something I'll take into consideration; I'll need to think some more about balancing quality/choice of foraml instruction with opportunities for conversational practice outside the classroom.

And, finally, thanks for all your various comments on the weather. Might be worth be thinking again about buying a warm coat, huh? ;)

[Matty]

I agree. Despite I know what it is like minus twenty (Celsius) inside tent in open tundra, the most miserable feeling from cold I ever experienced was in Nanning (Southern China) in winter: it is cold outside and even colder inside of unheated hotel room. It took some time to figure out how to deal with it.

I discovered the solution to this, since I had just moved from Harbin, wear your Harbin -20 -30 degree gear in your room. It will feel much better. But seriously the cold can be harder to handle in warmer locations, as it's less severe they just tend to ignore it.

I'd also think of investing in some winter type shoes, I could never find lager enough -20 degree shoes in China. Then again I wasn't looking in Beijing either. Chinese have tiny feet, it causes me great issues with shoe shopping.

Bring some Blu-Tak, as it's an Aussie product and seemingly unknown to the rest of the world.

[PanShiBo]

I discovered the solution to this, since I had just moved from Harbin, wear your Harbin -20 -30 degree gear in your room

My solution was to get extra layer: woolen socks for 10 rmb + layer of thin fleece long underwear (15 rmb) + long jacket (80 rmb)+ ski hat. Worked very well.

[PanShiBo]

Come to Beijing in early-mid September for 3 months, then move to Kunming in November, and stay there until around January/February before returning home.

Sydney, I was wondering how technically will you be able to stay in China for that long. L visa can last only 2-3 months. Then one can extend it twice each time for one month. Is this the plan?

[Matty]

Sydney, I was wondering how technically will you be able to stay in China for that long. L visa can last only 2-3 months. Then one can extend it twice each time for one month. Is this the plan?

This is a god point, however that wont get him his February.

Possible options I can see:

• Pay to study in Beijing for 6 months

- 6 month F visa and can do anything he wants.

• Pay to study in Beijing for 3 months, the pay to study in Kunming 3 months.

- 2x 3 month F visa and can do anything he wants.

• Get the 3 month L visa and bum around Kunming for 3 months, then go to Beijing to study on a 3 month F Vias.

- Maybe the cheapest option, but studying first would probably be best.

• Get the 3 month L visa in Sydney, study in Beijing then over stay illegally for the other 3 months in Kunming.

- You would get the "benefit" of experiencing the scary side of the government, possibly get a fine of up to 45,000 RMB (or does that cap at 5,000 or so?) and most probably get black listed from entering the mainland for 6 years. <=== I don't recommend this one.

I wonder how many methods I've missed, I can think of a couple more, but not really worth writing

[Sydney Matt]

PanShiBo & Matty, you read my mind - I was wondering about this! I'd be going for option 1 or 2, but I'm still a bit confused about how this works.

According to the Chinese consulate's website, to get an F-Visa, I would need:

(a) Admission Notice (original and copy) and Visa Application for Study in China (Form JW-201/JW-202, original and copy, which indicates the period of study being less than six months)

So, this implies that I would need to have my course of study all confirmed and paid for, both before I enter China and before I apply for the visa.

Therefore, whether or not I change cities during the 6 month period, I couldn't even change schools? I'm not saying I would neccessarily want to, I just feel that I might be missing something here?