Poll: shhhhhhh! "x" or "sh"

[realmayo]

Okay let's settle this. You are invited to answer the following question:

English has the "sh" sound. Chinese has the "x" and the "sh" sounds (in pinyin).

Which is the closer of those two Chinese sounds to the English one?

EDIT: For the purposes of this poll, base your answer on how you pronounce "sh" in the English word "she".

You have to pick one answer.

If you think they are both equally far from (or close to) the English sound, then you can't vote.

This follows this topic:http://www.chinese-f...E8%A5%BF-shore/

[creamyhorror]

Okay, firstly, the question is whether the x in pinyin xi / xia / xian / xiang or the pinyin consonant sh sounds more like English 'sh'. We're not talking about xu, xiong or other x-pinyins.

Also, shouldn't we define a reference pronunciation for pinyin xi? Many sources say it's ɕ, but the CCTV audio clips I linked in the previous thread sound more like it's somewhere in-between s and ɕ. See:

Okay, more examples from CCTV's "Special Chinese" 慢速新闻汉语. Listen to the sharp sibilant 's'-sound preceding Ms Yi Li's pronunciation of x:

http://english.cntv....05/108409.shtml

@ 0:28 - juxing qidong yishi - sharp x

@ 1:05 - chongman aixin de - sharp x

@ 1:20 - zhaoshou yanzhong yingxiang - sharp x

Two other readers:

http://english.cntv....18/102167.shtml

@ 1:11 - fenxi renshi - sharp x

@ 1:25 - huoxu jiang xiankai - sharp x

@ 1:27 - Meiguo Zhufang Jinrong Xitong - ultra-sharp x (this is a good one)

http://www.cctv.com/...se-20100326.mp3

@ 1:07 - Liu Xiangdong - ultra-sharp x (on the edge of becoming s)

@ 2:14 - yanhai feixing de - sharp x

@ 2:21 - diao tou xiang bei - ultra-sharp x

@ 2:47 - Daxiyang - sharp x

For variety, here's a video from Happy Chinese (快乐汉语):

http://english.cntv....24/102978.shtml

@ 1:08 - Fuchuan ye bei yuwei Guo Xiang Fuchuan - sharp x

@ 1:36 - Quanxixi - sharp x

I guess a reference is needed for English 'sh' and pinyin sh as well, but it gets troublesome...

[imron]

Okay let's settle this.

Why do I get the impression this is not going to settle this

[realmayo]

Also, shouldn't we define a reference pronunciation for pinyin x?

Nope, we shouldn't! The simpler the better!

There are a number of questions out there in the world* where person A thinks the answer is obviously X and person B thinks it's obviously Y and they find it hard to conceive of anyone could sensibly think differently to what they do.

*for example whether people wipe their backsides standing, sittiing, or chrouching tiger hidden dragon.

[roddy]

Also, shouldn't we define a reference pronunciation for pinyin x?

Nope, we shouldn't!

God, if only China was the kind of nation that would actually put a huge amount of work into doing that kind of thing, with perhaps even committees and the like, with officially produced standards - maybe even with CDs available. And public information campaigns, and they could have maybe some kind of exam - and there'd be loads of material available for that, theoretically. And the education system would put massive resources into teaching towards this made-up idea of mine. And they could think up some kind of Chinese name that means something like 'common speech'. 共同话 or 普通语 or something like that. And then, if in this paradise of linguistic standardization I've just invented off the top of my head, if some bunch of fine people on the Internet decided, for reasons best known to themselves, to dedicate the best part of a week to a random cross-language comparison of a few phonemes, they could at least do so with half a clue as to what it is they're actually comparing, rather than running around like headless goalpost-moving chickens.

Oh, wouldn't that be fine.

[realmayo]

It's descriptive not prescriptive. Sometimes broad brush-strokes are more useful than fine lines.

I notice you haven't voted yet. Hint:

The correct answer is "sh"

tee-hee.

[roddy]

I notice you haven't defined x yet

[realmayo]

what do you mean by define?

[roddy]

What do you mean by

[realmayo]

What do you mean by asking me all these questions? :ph34r:

[Meng Lelan]

They both sound alike to me.

[rezaf]

I still think it's in the middle but since I like supporting the weak I vote for "x".

[anonymoose]

This poll's ridiculous. It's like asking what would you prefer, an all expenses paid trip to a top beach hotel in Sanya for a week, or a weekend stay at a zhaodaisuo in Shijiazhuang with mantou and pidan for breakfast.

[paike]

The X in Chinese is a lot like some gay guy from Miami with his S's.

[realmayo]

... yes but Rezaf does love his mantou and pidan in the morning! (EDIT: in reference to anonymoose post, not paike)

So you think the answer is obvious anonymoose?

[bunny87]

The X in Chinese is a lot like some gay guy from Miami with his S's.

paike...i'd really love for you to expand on this one...

[edelweis]

I find not giving the option to vote "neither" errr uninteresting. It's not like you're going to decide who is right. You'll just end up with stats about forum members opinions. The only thing of interest to me is, proportionally how many people go with textbook definition of pinyin, and how many rely more on what they hear. Or something

[rezaf]

I wonder one of you guys who think the English sh is closer to sh could send a recording of "she" with the pinyin sh and x. Here is a sample to show you how ridicules sh would sound. x also sounds wrong but much more bearable.(I even exaggerated its sharpness a bit)

Audio Recording 52.mov

[jkhsu]

For those of you who voted that the English "sh" is closer than the Chinese Mandarin "sh", you're basically saying this video is wrong and that all the schools in China teaching people how to pronounce the English "she" using “西" for example are wrong. If you really feel this way, why don't you get people to change how Chinese or English is taught? At lot of people teaching Chinese Mandarin use similar examples as these videos.

Fastforward to 3:20 seconds in this video where she shows how "x" is similar to "sh"

Similarily, this is exactly how I pronounce "sh". Fastforward to 2:40 where she says there is a slight touch between your tongue and hard palete. I agree with this video 100%

[renzhe]

For those of you who voted that the English "sh" is closer than the Chinese Mandarin "sh", you're basically saying this video is wrong and that all the schools in China teaching people how to pronounce the English "she" using “西" for example are wrong.

Yes.