营帐, 屏障, 帐篷, 帷幕

[Peter2010]

I did not say the questions are ridiculous. what I'v said is 树叶像巨伞、似屏障 is ridiculous.

I agree a tree might look like a big umbrella or a shelter. but big umbrella and leaves are alike? how could that be possible?

[roddy]

He's talking about the leaves as a whole, no? Otherwise how can they be 茂密?

[Peter2010]

if the he had talked about the leaves as a whole, excluding stem of the tree, he would use 巨盖 (a huge hat?), not 巨伞. .

what could be a metaphor for the whole tree if 巨伞 is for it's leaves?

[semantic nuance]

Also, the sentence the pears appears in include similar descriptions of dates and apples which all are very appealing. There's no sense that the pears should not be appealing.

That's my point. The image is not coherent.

The ambiguities we see are the result of our level of Chinese (I will admit mine is much lower than yours).

I don't understand your point.

Also, 變醉了 is strange to me.

Many are used to describe "说" as in "炫耀地说". Even when I search for the exact "炫耀地挂", I get over 2,000 entries.

Think about how adverb is formed. Normally, it is derived from adjective. We would say 高高地掛在....If I want to say something with pride, then I would say 語帶炫耀地說, again 炫耀 here is not an adverb as you described as 炫耀地說。I just can say that even if you google a lot of sentences or phrases used, it does not mean that the usage is correct or good. Sometimes, it's just 以訛傳訛. I rest my case.

[creamyhorror]

@jkhsu: Great, let me/us know when you hear more opinions from native speakers. I think the passage is relatively advanced, but as @semantic nuance said, it may not be well-written, and one or two of the answers may not be immediately clear to most native speakers.

I agree with @roddy that there should be a general preference for one of the answers by (highly) literate native speakers. If, however, there's no consensus, then the question should be taken as doubtful.

@semantic nuance: 谢谢你的观点，我本身觉得这其中的一些选择不够分明对错，你的意见让我更确定自见。

Anyway, I feel like scanning and uploading some other passage from this practice book as a Chinese challenge or just for discussion and general learning, but I don't know how kosher it'd be or if people would be interested.

[roddy]

Can't see a passage or two hurting.

[jkhsu]

That's my point. The image is not coherent.

I am not sure you get my point. The sentence you are referring to looks pretty coherent to me.

"秋天是收获的季节，后院更热闹起来。虽然杏、桃在夏天就被摘完，但此时枣子红透了脸，梨子长满了雀斑，苹果则显得越发丰满。它们Q9______地挂在枝头，闪出诱人的光泽，你不需要吃，只看一眼就陶醉了"

This part: "但此时枣子红透了脸，梨子长满了雀斑，苹果则显得越发丰满。" is basically metaphorically describing ripe dates, pears and apples in terms of human physical parts. It's basically saying that the dates, pears and apples are all ripe and appealing. While having freckles can be interpreted is "bad" in another sentence, as in "he sunbathed a lot when he was younger and now his face is full of freckles", that is not what this sentence is saying. Second, when it says "它们Q9______地挂在枝头", it's referring to the dates, pears and apples, not just the pears. And to even to help you more, the end of the sentence says "只看一眼就陶醉了". I am not sure how much more the author of the question can help you with the answer for Q9. Yes, I agree, it's not easy and it is confusing but there is a clear answer based on all of the information given.

I don't understand your point.

What I am saying is that the reason we see ambiguities in the answers is based on our level of Chinese. If you were beginner level and looked at an intermediate level question, you might not be sure of the answer while someone more advanced can easily see the answer. The more advanced the questions are the more the answers seem ambiguous. This occurs with any language.

I just can say that even if you google a lot of sentences or phrases used, it does not mean that the usage is correct or good. Sometimes, it's just 以訛傳訛. I rest my case.

While I agree with your sentence in theory, this is not the case for the term "炫耀地挂". I've looked through several pages of the 2,260 entries and most (if not all) look pretty legit. Here is one from CCTV.

http://www.cctv.com/...18/102254.shtml

"...雨后天晴，一弯彩虹在空中炫耀地挂着，放射出五彩斑斓的光。"

While you may be right that 炫耀 is not used often as an adverb (I don't know this, just assuming that you are right), it does not mean that the usage of 炫耀 in this sentence (the sentence that creamyhorror posted) is incorrect.

Also with all due respect, I think your reasoning below is incorrect. A 帐篷 does not need to be "walled" as you say.

a quick answer to your first question: I'd go 帷幕。天然的屏障 though seems a fixed phrase, but 屏障 to me, has the connotation of being protected from being harmed. In the context you provided, I'ld choose 帷幕, which is used to seprate inside and outside. The reason I don't choose 營帳，帳篷, is because both are kind of being 'walled'. If things are 'walled', it's unlikely to 充满了凉意. That's my take on it, not sure if it's correct or not.

The descriptions from the sentence "...茂密的树叶像一把巨伞，又似一个天然______，不但把半个院落遮住，还把不起眼的小屋也揽在身下，屋里院里都充满了凉意。" and taken in context from the rest of what creamyhorror posted points to 帐篷 as the right answer. I also liked roddy ingenious way of using image search to help confirm the answer. While some of these words are vocab for me, the word 帐篷 is not. I've used it when describing a tent like thing with 4 legs with no walls used for large picnics and outdoor events (try doing an image search of 帐篷). I have also heard native speakers use 帐篷 to describe this. Based on the fact that it is a shade similar to an umbrella created by leaves of a tree, this seems like the most reasonable answer.

Finally, I'm all good for people trying to figure these questions out and even saying that they are sure about it. I'm cool with that. What bothers me the most is if you dismiss this passage and say it's not right while being a learner yourself. Advanced stuff is supposed to be confusing.

[creamyhorror]

What bothers me the most is if you dismiss this passage and say it's not right while being a learner yourself. Advanced stuff is supposed to be confusing.

semantic nuance is a native speaker from Taiwan...

[jkhsu]

semantic nuance is a native speaker from Taiwan...

If that's the case, then I apologize for labeling semantic nuance as a "learner". However, my post #27 still holds based on my own research, analysis and personal experience. Also, just because someone is a native speaker doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, especially on more advanced level stuff.

Great, let me/us know when you hear more opinions from native speakers.

I'm being more careful with using native speakers that I know for discussions on these forums. One thing I learned is not bring up things that are beyond my level because I end up having to defend them when arguments come up. Also, if I say something like "I asked 3 native speakers and they all said ....", it doesn't seem to help if someone is not convinced (you remember the sh vs x discussion?). I'd actually rather use analytical evidence to prove a point instead. The best thing is to have native speakers on this forum state their arguments and defend them to prove they are right. That's the best way.

@creamyhorror - BTW, do you have answers to these questions? Having the correct answers would really help!

[roddy]

Pay a bit more attention. If the chunk of Chinese semantic nuance posted on the first page of this discussion wasn't enough to tip you off she's a native speaker, it should have at least dropped a large hint in that direction. It's not the first time I've noticed you going off half-cocked because you haven't read something properly, or have decided to post on something you don't actually know anything about. You could stand to read more and post less.

[creamyhorror]

If that's the case, then I apologize for labeling semantic nuance as a "learner". However, my post #27 still holds based on my own research, analysis and personal experience. Also, just because someone is a native speaker doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, especially on more advanced level stuff.

Sure. I just wanted to say that the 语感 and reasoning of the native speaker (especially a well-spoken one like semantic nuance) has to be accorded some weight, because he/she has experience that can't be gleaned from research or reasoning.

Also, if I say something like "I asked 3 native speakers and they all said ....", it doesn't seem to help if someone is not convinced (you remember the sh vs x discussion?). I'd actually rather use analytical evidence to prove a point instead.

The difference is that here I'm looking for answers on something I'm not sure of, while then I was questioning a claim (and was pretty sure I was right, however you define it).

The trouble with analysing questions like these is that they often aren't based on solidly logical reasoning; more often it's just an established phrase (collocation) that the question tests. I think that's what happened in the case of 天然____, for example.

The best thing is to have native speakers on this forum state their arguments and defend them to prove they are right. That's the best way.

I'd agree.

@creamyhorror - BTW, do you have answers to these questions? Having the correct answers would really help!

Yes, I have the answers, but didn't want to post them too early. And I don't really view them as necessarily correct either, since the book wasn't set by an official exam authority of any sort. I can PM them to you or anyone who wants them.

[jkhsu]

I can PM them to you or anyone who wants them.

Yes, please do. I want to make sure I'm not making a fool of myself here.

[jkhsu]

It's not the first time I've noticed you going off half-cocked because you haven't read something properly, or have decided to post on something you don't actually know anything about. You could stand to read more and post less.

I rarely post on something I don't know anything about. (If you don't agree, feel free to private message me.) Usually, I have something that I do know quite well that is related to that post. But your point is well taken. I do sometimes (ok more than sometimes) read too quickly and miss some points but I think my arguments in this post are pretty valid. Also, I can't assume that just because someone posts some Chinese, that they are a native speaker. There are a lot of advanced level learners who can write great Chinese I am sure.

[jbradfor]

Anyway, I feel like scanning and uploading some other passage from this practice book as a Chinese challenge or just for discussion and general learning, but I don't know how kosher it'd be or if people would be interested.

Would it make a good 中文挑战?

[jkhsu]

Sure. I just wanted to say that the 语感 and reasoning of the native speaker (especially a well-spoken one like semantic nuance) has to be accorded some weight, because he/she has experience that can't be gleaned from research or reasoning.

Agreed. @semantic nuance, if you are reading this, I apologize to you directly for assuming you were a learner. Your opinion definitely has more weight in my book now. The funny thing is though, had I known that, I would have never offered my opinion. And even if my opinion is wrong, it's still a good learning experience to see my reasoning and how others agree with it or refute it. It's a strange psychology.

Would it make a good 中文挑战?

I vote YES.

[creamyhorror]

Would it make a good 中文挑战?

What should the rules be like? PM your answers to me, and I'll reply with the score and model answers? Free-for-all answering and discussion? Open discussion only after the first 3 days?

Thinking of posting a passage about 台北, it looks simpler in terms of language.

[Peter2010]

Would it make a good 中文挑战?

want advanced stuffs for a challenge?

why not take a look at the tests a Chinese student would have to take for college admission? see if you can get a high score.test.zip

[jkhsu]

want advanced stuffs for a challenge?

Great stuff. I'm going to download and take a look. Just to confirm, are you a native Chinese speaker?

@creamyhorror

Per your request, I asked 2 more native speakers for the two questions I did. Here are the results:

Person A:

Q4: (4) 帷幕

Q9 (3) 骄矜

Person B:

Q4: (3) 帐篷

Q9 (3) 骄矜

For Q4, it seems like they couldn't agree. But for Q9, there was definite agreement. When I asked them why 骄矜, they said that it was more positive than 炫耀. They definitely didn't think it was 炫耀. So this is interesting because based on MDBG and all the dictionaries, it seemed to that 炫耀 is more positive but it was not the case to those native speakers I asked. So I just proved myself wrong with this one.

Maybe you should toss this?

[semantic nuance]

@semantic nuance, if you are reading this, I apologize to you directly for assuming you were a learner. Your opinion definitely has more weight in my book now. The funny thing is though, had I known that, I would have never offered my opinion.

Never mind, jkhsu. It's ok to assume that I'm a learner. But I have to say, that even learners can be insightful, and even native speakers can be wrong. I don't see why my opinion 'definitely' weighs more in your book, just because after you've known I'm a native speaker of Chinese? That doesn't sound right to me.

[jkhsu]

I don't see why my opinion 'definitely' weighs more in your book, just because after you've known I'm a native speaker of Chinese? That doesn't sound right to me.

Thank you for accepting my apology. Yes, a native speaker's opinion does make a difference. I agree with creamyhorror that if you are a native speaker, you have a "feel" for these words that us learners may not have, especially when it comes to difficult words that are similar. We learn Chinese words by looking mostly at a Chinese-English dictionary but native speakers grew up hearing those words and saying those words in various situations. This is why it's always good to get a native speaker's confirmation. Sure, native speakers can be wrong also but most of us are no where near the level of a native chinese speaker so we have to take your comments with more weight. Again, sorry for the mistake and I'm glad this forum has native speakers such as yourself to help us with learning Chinese.