Dashan 大山 discusses why 老外 hate him

[realmayo]

Mark Rowswell / Dashan has been discussed a fair few times on the forums -- I've just come across a long post from elsewhere that the guy himself wrote a couple of weeks ago, discussing why foreign learners of Chinese tend not to like him. As I say, although this has been discussed here in the past I was very interested to read what he had to say himself (assuming it's genuine). I think it's a great post, he comes across very well indeed, and for anyone else who might be interested here's the link:

http://www.quora.com...n-Mark-Rowswell

Brief excepts:

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... the Dashan character – he’s such a nice guy you sometimes wish he’d make a cameo appearance in a horror movie just so you could watch him get ripped to shreds

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Chinese have a very complex and conflicting view of themselves and the world at large. They have a very strong self-identity and sense of pride, and this leads to a strong sense of “us vs. them” and of being misunderstood and misaligned by the rest of the world, or the West in particular, as well as a strong sense that they are gradually losing their language and culture in the process of globalization. In the face of this, Dashan represents a Westerner who appreciates and respects China, who has learned the language and understands the culture and has even become “more Chinese than the Chinese”. It’s a very powerful and reassuring image that appeals to very deep-rooted emotions.

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... I work within cultural norms. This spills over into the political realm, because, to be honest, Chinese cultural acceptance of foreign political criticism is almost nil. In short, I don’t have to worry about what government censors might say because Chinese audiences would never let me get that far anyway.

[jbradfor]

So why do 老外 hate 大山? Obviously not all do, I certainly don't, I respect his Chinese ability a lot.

I've heard people gripe that he is too famous for his Chinese ability, but what's wrong with that? There are many people here that are famous for absolutely nothing *cough* Paris Hilton *cough*, at least he's done something to deserve it.

He's an entertainer, and one aimed at native Chinese, not at 老外. That's the career he picked, and I see nothing wrong with that.

[renzhe]

That's an awesome read, thanks.

[Meng Lelan]

realmayo, great post and a green point to you.

I don't hate or like him, but I wonder what would happen if Da Shan took the WPT (Written Proficiency Test) for the Texas teaching certificate here. I guess he would emerge from the exam room as a sobbing mess, but I don't really know.

[icebear]

I wonder what would happen if Da Shan took the WPT (Written Proficiency Test) for the Texas teaching certificate here. I guess he would emerge from the exam room as a sobbing mess, but I don't really know.

Give the guy some credit. He's been living and working in China for 20+ years, and apparently not just hanging out with English teachers at the neighborhood Jenny Lou's.

[Meng Lelan]

Yes but it bothers me that he seems to represent just one aspect of a language skill. There's also reading and writing and people don't go crazy over whether he can read and write also.

[imron]

There's also reading and writing and people don't go crazy over whether he can read and write also.

A million fans on Weibo seem to like his writing, and he also maintains a blog. I think it's fair to say he can read and write also.

Anyway, I always figured a big reason most foreigners didn't like Dashan was because they were unable to understand any of the comedy or material he was doing. So they were constantly hearing and seeing Dashan, Dashan, Dashan, but were unable to appreciate why.

[renzhe]

I'd be absolutely shocked if he can't read. You don't reach that level without extensive reading. He's an entertainer, you can't entertain people by sitting in front of them and reading the newspaper.

Anyway, I always figured a big reason most foreigners didn't like Dashan was because they were unable to understand any of the comedy or material he was doing. So they were constantly hearing and seeing Dashan, Dashan, Dashan, but were unable to appreciate why.

He does make a good point (in the linked post). Da Shan is an imaginary character, created to build a cultural bridge and entertain native Chinese people. So the Da Shan character is indeed rather boring and colourless to many people coming from an American or European background.

Some people don't seem to realise the difference between Mark Rowswell and the Da Shan character. They actually think he's an expat simply being himself, who is popular for no reason. Da Shan is a bit like Mr. Bean or Borat in that respect.

[Meng Lelan]

It's true that he can't entertain with his level of writing and reading (unless he performs calligraphy) so it ends up being that he's more famous for the oral/aural language. And that tends to be put on display in a more prominent way and gets him pushed out front. Now I don't know much about his blog but a blog is more of a hidden aspect in that no one really sees him in the act of writing (or more rather, typing) plus it's not going to make as much money as acting or cross talk.

[simplet]

Some people don't seem to realise the difference between Mark Rowswell and the Da Shan character. They actually think he's an expat simply being himself, who is popular for no reason. Da Shan is a bit like Mr. Bean or Borat in that respect.

Or this could be the exact reason why they hate him. He's like the ultimate "white monkey".

Though personally I have no opinion of the man, I've never even seen any of his work.

[imron]

Now I don't know much about his blog but a blog is more of a hidden aspect in that no one really sees him in the act of writing

You need to get 方舟子 on the case.

[Meng Lelan]

You need to get 方舟子 on the case.

Really, yes!

[wushijiao]

I've always defended "Da Shan", mainly for two reasons: 1) I really admire the work he's put into becoming so fluent and good at Chinese. Just like, say, a professional athlete, there's tens of thousands of hours of work behind their seemingly easy performances. I'd rather see him as something to aspire to, rather than something to tear down. 2) I've often felt "Da Shan"-esque at large social gatherings in China, in which you almost have to adopt a non-offensive, super-culturally sensitive persona/character that is not quite your own, in order to fulfill certain social obligations as a foreigner. So, I understand where Roswell is coming from.

[realmayo]

I'm glad some people liked the link. I've since been clicking around that website, quora.com, which I'd never heard of before. Plenty more posts by Mark Roswell including an interesting one on how long it takes an English speaker to be fluent in Chinese: http://www.quora.com...uent-in-Chinese.

In short:

2 years to lie on your resume and hope no Chinese speaker interviews you for a job (because 2 years is enough to bullshit your way through a situation in front of non-speakers).

5 years for basic fluency, but with difficulty.

10 years to feel comfortable in the language.

One lifetime is not enough to attain the level of a native speaker, unless you start before the age of 10. (I was 19)

I'm not saying his word is gospel or anything, but I find it fascinating to see someone who not only has learned excellent Chinese but also someone I've been aware of as a 'celebrity' since I first went to China years ago, actually discussing the stuff we talk about here.

I've certainly never disliked Dashan but perhaps been slightly put off by the fact that although he's held up by tonnes of Chinese as a great example of an English speaker learning Chinese, I've never seen that aspect of him. Which makes sense: Dashan is for an act for Chinese speakers -- it's his Chinese audience that forces (or used to force) him on to foreigners, not he himself. However in those quora.com posts he's a foreigner who has learned Chinese ... and it's nice to see he's human!

[siledouyaoai]

I think the Dashan hating phenomenon is more of a reflection of many 老外s uneasy relationship with China, rather than any particular reflection on the character or the man himself. The Dashan cabbie conversation does get old, but I can't say that I get annoyed that he is better than me; he always will be, and good for him. As others have said, his ability is inspiring more than anything. Having said that, I can't say that Dashan doesn't bother me in some way though. I think this is because Dashan is held up as the standard for foreigners (not just as a standard for entertainers, but for how much of a 中国通 you are), yet Dashan is a fictional character, an act, rather than an expression of Mark Roswell the actual person. I feel like the Dashan character circumvents the problem of reacting to foreign environments in a natural way using a foreign language by always having the reference point of a definite predefined role. But again, that's not his fault.

[wushijiao]

Having said that, I can't say that Dashan doesn't bother me in some way though. I think this is because Dashan is held up as the standard for foreigners (not just as a standard for entertainers, but for how much of a 中国通 you are), yet Dashan is a fictional character, an act, rather than an expression of Mark Roswell the actual person. I feel like the Dashan character circumvents the problem of reacting to foreign environments in a natural way using a foreign language by always having the reference point of a definite predefined role. But again, that's not his fault.

I think this is a very interesting and fair critique. I've often thought that the "Dashan" character phenomenon was (or is) a sign of the times, or a needed character for China in the 1980's, 1990's, or even the early 2000's. In other words, most Chinese people in the late 1980's had lived a life of tremendous hardships. They's been told that the West was out to destroy them for a whole lifetime, and they had had virtually no interactions with foreigners. Also, the fact that they had developed such an insular and secretive culture made it even harder to interact with foreigners. So, I wonder to what extent the "Dashan" character (a humorous, non-political affirmation of traditional Chinese culture) phenomenon was created by circumstance? I mean, around 2007 I saw a TV reality show about doing business (small teams compete to do a business task in just a few days), and they had a foreigner on there who spoke great Chinese and more or less seemed to be himself on the show. In some ways this is the type of portrayal many laowais would appreciate. However, I wonder whether or not this type of realistic portrayal would have been possible a few decades ago. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[gato]

Dashan's first TV appearance was in 1988, and I suppose he didn't become famous until after the 1989 Massacre. Could CCTV have used Dashan to try show the Chinese public that China wasn't internationally isolated? There was an international boycott of China after 1989 and many foreign companies left China.

[wushijiao]

Could CCTV have used Dashan to try show the Chinese public that China wasn't internationally isolated? There was an international boycott of China after 1989 and many foreign companies left China.

This might have been the sub-text. But if that's the case, I would still argue that his character served a positive purpose during those years.

But also, the timing is partly coincidental (ie. 1988 just happened to be when Roswell was a young man, learning Chinese and in Beijing). Obviously, he had no control of comrades Li and Deng.

Plus, I'd bet that when some people asked Roswell if he wanted to be on TV in 1988, he might have thought, "wow...that will certainly be a challenge. I'll try it". He probably wouldn't have predicted that he would have become a household name throughout China.

[gato]

But also, the timing is partly coincidental (ie. 1988 just happened to be when Roswell was a young man, learning Chinese and in Beijing). Obviously, he had no control of comrades Li and Deng.

But there might have been other talented Chinese learners before 1988. Lots of foreigners go on CCTV, but that CCTV went back to Dashan after his initial 1988 apperance and made him a star might not have been an accident. Like Mark Roswell himself says, Dashan is a fictional character. CCTV is at least a co-creator of that character. It'd be interesting to see a chronology of his apperances.

See this:

http://baike.baidu.com/view/243819.htm

1989年底，大山拜相声表演艺术家姜昆为师，成为相声艺术“家谱”里的第一个外国人。多年来，他还向相声表演艺术家丁广泉学习相声等曲艺表演艺术，并与老师共同创作、表演了多个节目，在中央电视台等全国许多省市电视台播出，颇有影响。如代表作《错位》就是大山和丁广泉根据多年的亲密合作而共同创作的一段中外相声。

He started studying xiangsheng with the famous Jiang Kun only after the 1989 massacre. Jiang Kun was like the Jerry Seinfeld of China and wouldn't just work with anybody. He was probably tasked to work with Dashan.

Just to clarify, I'm not necessariy blaming Mark Roswell here. Just trying to see if there is a connection. It would be interesting to hear from Mark about his experiences in 1989 (when he was 24 years old). Don't know if he would be willing share that publicly given his status in China.

[wushijiao]

Yes, I wouldn't doubt it if the CCP would have nefarious purposes for creating such a character. Their whole world view is singularly political, so it's only natural that they see Da Shan through a political lens. But even so, so what? I'm just not convinced that he had a moral obligation not to do xiangsheng, or the "Da Shan" character. Of course, one could see it as that he's indirectly helping a repugnant regime, but you could also see it in that he's helping to create a space for cross cultural acceptance, given the most vitriolic and tense political times.

Old China Hands, like George H. W. Bush's, first reaction in June of that year was to reach out to the CCP, and make sure they wouldn't reverse course on reform and opening (and opening to the world). There was a genuine worry that they'd go back to a North Korea-like existence. In this sense, Da Shan might have helped avoid this possibility. (Of course, this is stretching it and pure conjecture, but his influence to avoid a return to NK-like status is just as probable as his comic character beng the desicive factor propping up the CCP in those years).